TedG
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posted May 04, 2005 10:09 PM
Ex ZX12 owners
For those who have owned a ZX12 (or still do) and now own a ZX10 what do you think? I just bought a 10 and still have my 12. The bike is new and not broken in yet and I am curious about how it wiil feel once broken in and I can dip into the power band. Right now it seems dead slow in comparison to the 12. But that is because I am keeping it mostly at low RPMs. I am hoping that the power will impress me when I can wring it out. Were you impressed?
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Ted
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swft
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posted May 05, 2005 06:23 AM
Yes
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Rubber Pants
Zone Head
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posted May 05, 2005 06:55 AM
Most definitely!
The thing you will notice is the 100 lbs less weight. To me it's like getting rid of a passenger off yer 12. I still have my 02 12 but like the 10 way better. IMHO
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TedG
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posted May 05, 2005 07:31 AM
quote:
Yes
I'm not sure I can make it through your lengthy reply, I will have to put aside an hour or to to digest all of that.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
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k bryant
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posted May 05, 2005 08:09 AM
The 10 is much more violent and twitchy when wacked open. On the 12, it was more like a steady freight train that seemed to just keep pulling stronger and more linear. I would say it was more comfortable and secure when on the pipe. With the 10, I pay more attention. I would say it mostly based on the lightweight and short wheelbase. Same fun. Different feel. I do miss the 12 though.....
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Dino
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posted May 05, 2005 05:06 PM
 Edited By: Dino on 5 May 2005 18:07
I feel the same as you Ted. Mine just doesn't live up to what everyone is saying. I think I got a "special" 12 and a 'lemon" 10.
I love riding it and it's great on the track but it just feels nuetered compared to the 12.
That's why I'm keeping the 12 for the street.
Hey,...good seeing you on the board again 
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TedG
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posted May 05, 2005 07:40 PM
Edited By: TedG on 5 May 2005 20:55
quote:
I feel the same as you Ted. Mine just doesn't live up to what everyone is saying. I think I got a "special" 12 and a 'lemon" 10.
I love riding it and it's great on the track but it just feels nuetered compared to the 12.
That's why I'm keeping the 12 for the street.
Hey,...good seeing you on the board again
Oh sure now you tell me after I bought the silly thing. It is looking more and more dismal by the minute. I was so hoping that it would be the brute it is made out to be. That is what I get for reading those stupid rags that call themselves magazines. If this thing diappoints, it is history. The 12 is just such a hard act to follow. Good thing I kept the 12. But I have to give it a chance and hope it is fun and will wheelie at this altitude.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fish_antlers
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posted May 05, 2005 08:01 PM
Ted.. for me it was the opposite of Dino... my 12 had power, but the crappy FI and the extra weight took away from all the fun/.. I much preferr the 10R...
break it in nicely... it takes a good 1500 miles for the power to come on... engine is very tight.
Dismal? hmmm...
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TedG
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posted May 05, 2005 08:45 PM
Edited By: TedG on 5 May 2005 21:46
quote:
Ted.. for me it was the opposite of Dino... my 12 had power, but the crappy FI and the extra weight took away from all the fun/.. I much preferr the 10R...
break it in nicely... it takes a good 1500 miles for the power to come on... engine is very tight.
Dismal? hmmm...
Fish I truly hope you are right. I do want a lightweight rocket. Also my FI is spot on, no hesitation, flawless.
Dismal, is right, I got so pumped up by the posts and I got my hands on a few magazine articles and to listen to everyone the bike is nothing less than miraculous. Then I jump on the thing and it feels like I am riding a weak 600. But I will break it in properly and see what all the fuss is about. I am hoping it will surprise me when I really dip into the power band and make me smile. I examined my riding and I do 150 mile loops around some very twisty roads with sections of straight highway and a bike that has been touted like the 10 really has some appeal. If I were still a ZX11 owner the 10 would be ideal. But I have been spoiled by an absolutely flawless 12 that is still a stellar performer than no GSXR 1000 or F1 has even come close to on a twisty road or straightaway.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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redelk
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posted May 05, 2005 09:18 PM
Kinda funny you'd mention "a weak 600". For quite some time, I avoided doing any "serious" riding on the team's endurance bike. Putt around in the paddock at the most. Even though it is a R6, it is still a full blown "race bike" and has performed quite well for many long (some up to 8 hours) endurance races.
After rebuilding it after a crash during our season opener this year, I figured I'd take it for a spin. You know, just to "confirm" that everything was fixed. OMG! Talk about GUTLESS! For a while, I though that the throttle cables were not connected. Sure, it would accelerate... if you want to call it that. Then, when I applied the front brakes, the front end dived down like an olympic diver and that was after we had just finshed spend almost $600 on the bike's suspension. Though I wasn't riding that hard, the handling felt vague and sloppy.
I was laughing out loud in my helmet. To think, I actually "feared" this "super racebike" when in reality, it rode more like my 10R with two sparkplug wires removed and water for fork oil. Three days laters, the boys piloted the same R6 to a fourth place finsh in a 8 hour endurance race on the 2.9 mile road course at Texas World Speedway.
I could only imagine what they could have done on my 10R. Oh wait... three of the five riders on our team are too scared to even ride my 10R (2 of the 3 have ridden it before). You know what? They have a reason to be scared!
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fish_antlers
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posted May 06, 2005 07:07 AM
Ted... call it what you want... I've put many miles on my 10R and the proof (for me and many others) is in my pocket book. I can also assure you that it by no means feels anything like a 600, as I have an 04 636 sitting in the garage beside the 12R.
As for different peoples impressions. Certain members have done things to their 10R's which have effected performance, possibly negatively. Dino claims to have a "lemon" of a 10R. He also negelcts to mention that he broke his 10R in the "Motoman meathod" (you know.. the guy on the internet who says you should whack it right open and totally ignore the factory's guidelines) .... Some members of this site who happen to work at KMC shook their heads and had a good chuckle over the fact that he actually did that.....
So the first and foremost thing I can say is to take your time and break it in.
That being said Red had "problems" with his brakes... claiming that they lacked feel/ bite etc etc. No explanation for that...
I've had a completely opposite experience... the 10R is leaps and bounds over my 12R... it's clean the floor with the 636 and it's a pleasure to ride. The one major difference that the 12 has over the 10 is the "bottomless pit" of power feeling the 12R had... but you wont miss that since the cornering and handling are so much better.
Now all you need to do is traqde the 12R for next year's 12R and you'll have a full set 
Makke sure you check out the site sponsors if you want a pipe for that bike. I'm pretty sure Area P is about to offer some sort of something for us (I'll have to wait for kbryant to say what it is)
-hope this helps.
Dont worry.. be happy.
(you did watch that link it posted in the other thread? )
I
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
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posted May 06, 2005 07:28 AM
Red, again I am hoping you are correct and my first impressions are wrong. I just paid cash for the thing on a whim, and although not that much money (it was either that or a new watch, which I may still get) I would hate to think I wasted it. Then I was thinking I was being me and always overly critical BUT I just bought a 2005 Vette (eat your heart out swft) and I am completely dazzled with that thing, the only complaint I have is the stereo and I have fixed that already. And remembering when I got the 12, and the only real complaint was the seat(which is still a PIA).
And after thinking about it for a while, maybe your suggestion about gearing is down would make it better, I am pretty anal about accurate gages so maybe a yellow box is in order or make one myself(being an EE helps). But I hate noise so a pipe is out of the question. Although I wish the thing looked as good as the 12 can.
I do know one thing, I hate Dunlop tires and as soon as it is broken in they are history and a set of Michelin Pilot race and the rims will get polished edges and lime green spokes are in order.
Please keep you comments coming, they are helping me feel better about the thing. It is raining here and my idea of roughing it is an Embassy Suites, so obviously I will wait for some sunshine.
Well time to go order an new RX7RR Arai to match the green(if they make anything, I was hoping I wouldn't have to paint another helmet this time). And of course a good lime green jacket.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fish_antlers
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posted May 06, 2005 07:30 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 6 May 2005 08:31
ted... if the 160hp isnt enough then this cheap fix might put a smile on yer face
http://www.muzzys.com/ZX10/ZX10DryNitrous/index.html
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k bryant
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posted May 06, 2005 08:51 AM
Once you get it broken-in. Whack the throttle open in any gear after 6 or 7000 rpm and hold it to the rev limiter before shifting and/or backing off. Then let us know if you are still disappointed when comparing it to the 12....
As I said previously, it's just a different feel, but by no means does that mean slower. The mass, torque and wheelbase of the 12 just provide a different rush. The 10 is down right nasty when ridden like what it was specifically designed for.
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TedG
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posted May 06, 2005 11:03 AM
Well gents let me say this: First of all I was a motorcycle mechanic for many years, and a damn good one. Very anal . I have seen what happens when a bike is improperly broken in. Guaranteed I have rebuilt more engines then most here. That being said, I am a firm believer in the heat - cool methodology, especially in the first 1-200 miles. It tempers the rings, anneals the pistons, allows the bearings and journals to "wear into each other" etc. And even with the occasional climb in RPMs I do it loading the engine very gently. I know what happens when you hammer an engine that is made to last too early. Machining leaves sharp edges, those sharp edges cut through the oil film and if loaded too much they will create a hot spot and things go downhill from there.
That is why I have such a bad impression, I just can't bring myself to abuse the engine so all that I am left with is performance nowhere near the real powerband on an extremely tight motor. I feel better already.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Rubber Pants
Zone Head
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posted May 06, 2005 11:59 AM
quote:
Well gents let me say this: First of all I was a motorcycle mechanic for many years, and a damn good one. Very anal . I have seen what happens when a bike is improperly broken in.
I don't know about this as I whacked the hell outta mine (still scares me) barley any break in and I've never had any trouble with any of my bikes over the years!?!? I just could never wait! 
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TedG
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posted May 06, 2005 01:06 PM
quote:
quote:
Well gents let me say this: First of all I was a motorcycle mechanic for many years, and a damn good one. Very anal . I have seen what happens when a bike is improperly broken in.
I don't know about this as I whacked the hell outta mine (still scares me) barley any break in and I've never had any trouble with any of my bikes over the years!?!? I just could never wait!
And you may never have what you consider a problem, but you probably have taken some of the longevity out of it. The rings most likely won't last as long, the bearings may show uneven wear, the pistons may begin to slap sooner. Your empirical evidence sample is kind of small to get reliable data. On top of that how many engines have you torn down a measured each and every piece and examined every piece? To throw out a statement saying I did it and It is OK, is fine. But is it really OK? It seems to run well, but does it burn more oil than it would if it was broken in carefully? Could it run even better if it were broken in carefully? How well will it run after 30k miles? Probably not as good as it would if broken in carefully. There is a reason for break in, and it isn't just to annoy new buyers.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Rubber Pants
Zone Head
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posted May 06, 2005 01:49 PM
And you may never have what you consider a problem, but you probably have taken some of the longevity out of it
Ya but Ted ..................... I never keep them long enough anyway. By 5000 miles usually they are gone for the latest greatest Kaw!
But you do have a valid point if you are intending to keep them for a long time.
What ever ..... HAVE FUN Ted!!!!!!
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Dino
Pro
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posted May 06, 2005 04:58 PM
Disclaimer.....I DIDN"T use the "motoman method"...I said I was considering it. I didn't go completely by the factory method either, but closer to it than the motoman. I guess we'll have to wait till this summer to compare/ swap bikes to see if there is much difference.
Mine seems to be faster than the other 10's,R1's, 1K's that I've ridden with, but it still seems a lil' nuetered. The 12 has ruined me 
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TedG
Moderator
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posted May 06, 2005 07:37 PM
Edited By: TedG on 6 May 2005 20:44
Well today after work I went for a 100 mile ride. Up Virginia City Highway, down the truck route and through Carson City. Damn it was cold. But anyway VC is a very windy road and the truck route is a nasty downhill run off the cliff, hair raiser that the Ferrari clubs will use to go up but found it way too hairy to go down.
Anyway I started up the hill and just took it easy because it may be wet and dirty. Just feeling what the bike felt like to lean from side to side. Pretty much effortless and I was able to pick any line even at 80ish, One point for the 10. Hmm life is getting better. Now it is time to go down the hairy truck route, So I take the first few corners and find the road to be clean and dry. So I shift up (to help keep the RPMs down) and increase speed. It is still fifty degrees out so getting the tires warmed up it a bit tough. Anyway I roll through a 20 mph corner at about 60 and ... very nice, I am not even shifting my weight. Yet another point for the the 10. Now the corner switches direction into a rather tight turn and then increases radius, I roll on the throttle and the thing leaps to the next corner. Yeah baby I am liking this. The rest of the turns are pretty hairy and I just shifted up ( again to keep the revs down) and rolled through them at a pretty good clip, completely effortlessly. So I head back home and get stopped by a cop and she only wants to check my license because of the temporary plate. So now I go through Carson City and I have to take 395 home. I have to go across Washoe Valley which is extremely windy and now I am getting cold. Anyway I get across and stop at a gas station to warm my hands for a minute. So I take off again and have to pull into 65 mph traffic. OK lets goose it a bit, I roll out and kinda decide to do a small roll off then on wheelie, So I do and the thing lets out a hair raising shriek (that is the only way to describe it) and gently lofts the front wheel and rockets up to about 90. Oh hell yeah, This thing is growing on me big time. As it loosens up it is getting smoother and smoother. The power is getting better with every mile. I am very pleased at the moment. The 2 times I gassed it, felt great. I think I am going to love this bike.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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redelk
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posted May 06, 2005 08:41 PM
quote:
I think I am going to love this bike.
WHEW!
Though I have never been the greatest source of data when it comes to the "ultimate" bike (probably because I am NOT the "utimate" rider)... I DO HATE to steer someone wrong, even if it is just my opinion and little more.
There was one other thing I forgot to "suggest". A steering damper. Though I already had one on my 10R long before it had been broken in, it is highly recommende by others that have "approached the edge" either at speed or with one wheel in the air. I am please with my Muzzy damper, but I haven't heard too many complants about the Scotts either.
Enjoy. It will only get better from here.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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TedG
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posted May 06, 2005 10:15 PM
Well Red, I was asking you pointed questions and you answered them as you saw them. You did not steer me wrong. If anyone steered me wrong I would only have myself to blame.
As for the steering damper. I am a wierd guy, I like the headIshake, I like the slides, I like the wrestling match of a big bike. Those things are fun to me. I grew up as a flat tracker it makes one enjoy those types of things.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Hells Dark Lord
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living life, and loving it.
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posted May 07, 2005 01:18 AM
my 12 was very stout, adn I loved it, I spent some time having it tweaked and the suspension set up for me, adn I really really loved the bike. Fate took her from me so I decided to go with the 10 this time around. there are times I wished I had my 12 back. Like when I am droneing along on the highway. Other than that, the 10 was the way to go. Its so much fun to ride around, espicially on the curvy back roads.
The power delivery is very different than the 12 though. The 12 had nice power everywhere, comparatively the 10 is ridden like a middle weight, with more RPM's used to keep her moving. But move she will do. I would say that my 10 is almost as fast on the top end, but gets there in a entirely different manner. Kbryant said it when its much more violent. I find the front whell always reaching for the sky, or dancing across the pavement. And its been my expierence so far that the 10 is every bit as hard on tires as the 12 was......or maybe its just me.....lol
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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TedG
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posted May 07, 2005 08:50 AM
As you guys can see I am a firm believer is a relatively tame break in. That being said dipping into the power band is a bit tough for the 1st 1000. And I am not going to flog it. . The good part is I love a peaky bike, I seem to feel I have more control. When on a twisty road I love to spin it up and leave it there. Just the little sample yesterday really wet my appetite. The weather here is cool and rainy which is good break in weather. Right now I feel I made the perfect choice. I am impressed how comfortable it is for me. I haven't been riding and yesterday even my butt wasn't sore. I don't think I could say that on the 12 with a Corbin. Droning down the rad will take some getting used to, it needs 7 speeds. I hate not having a fuel gage. I have no clue how much gas I have. Also from what I read I am going to have to gas up far more frequently. Also I kind of like the idea of not worrying about top speed. That is all anyone cared about with the 12 and although we know it was faster than the Busa, that is all you heard about. I love the new focus. I am optimistic.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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redelk
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posted May 07, 2005 08:50 AM
Ted, you ain't "weird"... your a damn "purist"! I know I'd be scard to see you walk into my dealership, be it car or bike. Your also a "realist". In other words, you recognize that there might be a few minor shortcomings, but the bike or car better be damn near perfect and if it is good as the manufacturer/salesman says, it should NOT need pipes, dampers, etc. to have fun.
As I get ready to go out and ride my 10R, I gotta laugh on how I have always added items to both my two and four wheeled vehicles to either improve it's performance or it's apearance. Some of those addition did what they claimed...some did not.
Enjoy. I know I will.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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