posted January 02, 2005 01:48 PM
NEW SHOP, NEW DYNO DIALED IN MY 10! Hey, haven't been around in alittle while. Been quite busy.
In the last 2 months I have been in the process of partnering up with a local repair & customizing shop. My contribution to the facility was a state of the art Dyno from Dynojet complete with Eddy Brake Load Control & an Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor. The shop is primarily a Harley oriented shop as far as service goes. But, as far as the Dyno tuning is concerned, I will tune any make or model including Quads.
Well, got the ZX10 up on the dyno, it had an Akro EVO II full Ti pipe, BMC race filter & a PCIIIusb. I had a map downloaded for my mods & wanted to see just how close to spot on that map was. Got the bike warmed up & made some passes. My best pass was 152hp @ around 12k rpms. Started tuning the bike and when I finished I had pulled between between 6 to 9hp thru out the rev range & increased my all gear run to 162.5hp @ 12.2K rpms & my 4th gear to 157.5 hp @ 12.2K rpms.
This Dyno is an amazing piece of diagnostic equiptment. I was initially under the impression that a downloaded map would prove satisfactory for most cases & that is true if you are willing to live without that additional power that can be found on the Dyno.
posted January 02, 2005 08:21 PM
Sure, but wouldn't it make more sense to tune it on the road? It does have ram air. That's gotta make some kind of difference, doesn't it? You wouldn't be the first guy to gain 10 hp on the dyno and lose 10mph in top speed.
posted January 03, 2005 03:52 PM
Edited By: FP 10R on 4 Jan 2005 13:17
ZX,
I am currently finishing the installation of a Dynojet 250i with a full flow through ventilation system meaning a 26,000 cfm fan and silencer unit roof mounted at the rear of the dyno. A louver grill mounted in the wall with external silencer and a full VSD drive on the fan connected to the internal weather station on the Dyno, is this a simular unit to yours?
BOV, ram air is a myth, the speed needed to actually induce a positive pressure above atmospheric cannot be achieved by the speed of a motorbike. What is achieved is the minimal loss of atmospheric pressure under WOT and the closer you can maintain this to atmospheric the closer to ideal your A/F ratio will be.
If you can tune your bike to atmospheric pressure through the rev range and maintain the correct A/F ratio then you have the perfect setup. I had an argument with an engineer over this whole Ram AIr issue and he went to great lengths to prove me wrong.
The aim is to maintain positive ( atmospheric ) pressure through the rev range for optimum performance ie: the higher the revs the more air you draw from the air box the quicker you have to replace the volume this is where the ram air comes in.
It appears that Kawasaki are the current masters of this design system a company in England tested all bikes under set conditions and determined that Kawasaki were the only ones who truly understood the requirements to maintain a positive atmospheric pressure on a motorbike! Example 2000 model ZX6 -9-12R.
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"Life is not a rehearsal so make the most of it" Carefully
posted January 03, 2005 10:21 PM
My Dyno is the Dynojet Model#168 w/#198 deck area the options included the eddy brake load controller & A/F monitor. I have a 36" 12,000 cfm fan coming thru the wall & the 2 2200 cfm directional fans from Dynojet. The room we have the dyno in has only 3 sides therefore it does not pressurize. I vent exhuast via 10" flex line thru my garage door of shop. Noise was not a factor in the build, we are in an industrial area & surrounded by race shops of the auto & moto nature. As a matter of fact the reason we went with a Dyno capable of accomodating Quads is due to or neighbor being one of the more prominent quad race builders. He wanted to rent time on our dyno if we went that direction.
To answer Bovines question. I played with the PCIIIusb w/o the use of the dyno & I'm afraid I couldn't have even come close to how good it runs now. I don't think it is possible to get a fuel injected setup dialed in by the seat of pants, close but no cigar.
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posted January 03, 2005 10:24 PM
One more thing, there are variables that are taken into play to enhance a fuel map on a bike that has ram air. I did incorporate them when I mapped the PCIII.
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posted January 03, 2005 10:59 PM
I'm sure your thingy is the cat's asshole. I was just curious if you actually gained any performance or just got some nice graphs. Do any before/after runs for top speed or acceleration? Take a few tenths off your lap time?
posted January 03, 2005 11:08 PM
This Dyno is an amazing piece of diagnostic equiptment. I was initially under the impression that a downloaded map would prove satisfactory for most cases & that is true if you are willing to live without that additional power that can be found on the Dyno.
ALOT of riders/owners THINK that. Till they have us or a shop tune the bike they ride...then it is all smiles and WOW i cant believe it
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posted January 04, 2005 03:59 PM
I think that article just confirms what alot of us already new in the real world on a zx9 and most kawis with ram air. I am only talking strait line but the kawis do seem to just wake up and pass the competition. It also confirms all past readings I have heard about kawasaki being the king of ram air.
quote:I'm sure your thingy is the cat's asshole. I was just curious if you actually gained any performance or just got some nice graphs. Do any before/after runs for top speed or acceleration? Take a few tenths off your lap time?
I been riding for 30 years. I think I can feel a performance gain of this magnitude. Did I mention that ZX10 was owned by me, Oh & that I rode it home right after I finished mapping it.
I rung its neck the whole way! I had 4k of untuned miles on the bike prior to the Dyno tuning so, I was pretty familiar with the power charactoristics.
I have spent lots of money on engine mods to get the same gains I got for about 2.5 hours of Dyno time.
Also, if you noticed I didn't post this for advertisement of my shop , I didn't even so much as mention it's name. I posted this to give my fellow riders a heads up on just how significant a Dyno tuning can be when done properly.
posted January 04, 2005 08:24 PM
I don't have the a/f chart on hand but, it ranged 13.4/1 to 13.1/1. I dabbled below & around 13/1 and didn't produce anymore power. Wasn't too concerned w/mpg. Although I dont believe that will be a problem. What I did find was absence of popping on roll-off which was nice.(I do not have block-off plates).
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posted January 04, 2005 08:31 PM
one more thing, when I test rode this bike on the street the almost 9hp picked up @ about 8k is unreal! This bike pulls unbelievably hard from there on up.
Have I said how happy I'am with the results?
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posted January 04, 2005 09:27 PM
I'm interested in quantified results, not opinions. If ram air is not relevant to tuning, I want to see that demonstrated. If you got 10 hp from mapping, just how fucking crappy was the map you had in there? That's a huge gain. What will it do without the pc?
posted January 04, 2005 11:09 PM
Dyno School is OUT! Sorry Bovine, you want results bring your ride down & I'll set it up for you. Personally, I think you got a shitty attitude. Where did you see a 10 hp gain. I gained 5.5 hp peak on a 4th gear pull & between 6 to 9hp thruout 2k to 12.2k.
Dial your 10 seat of the pants if thats what floats your boat. Better yet throw it on the Dyno & run your mouth directly in front of the ram air. That should get the pressurized air box results you're seeking!
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posted January 05, 2005 03:49 AM
zx1kr - don't let knuckleheads like bovine rattle your cage. He likes to spew out ill will any chance he gets. Just his idea of fun, I guess.
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted January 05, 2005 08:28 AM
Hey swft, why don't you go and align your forks by hand. Fucking moron. I have a legitimate question here. The guy claims big gains on the dyno and says it "feels" faster. I want to know what happened to the bike's performance. I don't care what the cute piece of paper from the machine says. Show me something off a lap timer or a stopwatch. The net is chock full of "so and so tuned my bike and it got x hp" anecdotal bullshit. Where are the "I got my bike dynotuned and took 1.3 seconds off my lap time" fish tales? (sits back to await the flood of fish tales)
posted January 05, 2005 09:24 AM
Gentleman - A dyno is simply a tool. It doesn't win races. It simply tells you numbers that allow you to design, change, whatever it is you want to try and do to vary those numbers to your hearts content. If you're happy with the numbers the dyno shows you, and the bike runs good enough to make you happy, bitchin. Job well done.
I've said this several times in the past, on the racetrack, the dyno phase of your development stops for the time being. So things like gearing, tire spin, altitude, temp, wind, track conditions, etc. all come into play at improving lap times and /or winning races.
So, dyno numbers are great. But the question asked about what it actually did/does for performance on the track is a fair question. Peace.
posted January 05, 2005 10:35 AM
I agree 100%.The problem is I it's mid january & I live in Long Island NY so theres not alot of racing of the track variety going on up here. What ticks me off is this idiot (bovine)has turned a simple post into a shooting range for my integrity & judgement. The bottom line is no I didn't take it to the track & verify a drop in my lap times. But yes, using my judgement on the street & comparing the same 25 mile run I did to get the bike to the dyno 2.5 hrs. prior I can tell you without question that I have a significant gain in performance. I fully plan on putting my tuning to a test of sorts. My buddy has the same setup on his 10 whenever we roll-on neither pulls on the other, Dead even!
If the results are correct that will no longer be the case!
It is currently snowing/freezing rain here so possibly by the weekend this might be doable. I will post the results.
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posted January 05, 2005 01:16 PM
Gentlemen,
is this any way to start off a new year? Bov what bug is up your ass? unlike you to be this in your face! The man is expressing an educated opinon based on him riding the bike for 4K doing the work and riding it after with 30 years experience in the saddle.
I think his comments are completely relevent, fine tuning is a subjective thing you get to know the little quirks of your bike over time and how it performs in certain situations. Ever cleaned your air filter then gone for a blast and thought shit that's a big change more responsive, pulls harder, ect.
That is subjective assessment, not all things can be measured in terms of HP or Torque on a Dyno sheet as K bryant said a Dyno is just a tool to get you in the ball park. And BO your question on fuel maps, my experience is most are way off the mark and should be used as a starting point only.
I have had three different maps in my bike so far ( none set upon a Dyno yet ) and it has made the bike go from a docile all rounder with 350km's to a tank of fuel to a beast that blows 2 foot flames out the rear and a real handfull with max 170 km's to the tank.
I am currently running a map somewhere in the middle that has changed the bike yet again in terms of performance and fuel consumption top speed ect.
When I finally finish the Dyno installation I will be able to gauge the optimum setting for my bike and it's current configuration v the ideal setup map and see the difference.
But as always the proof is in the riding and this will determine my final setup, but hey this is just my opinion. So come on boys this place is supposed to be fun that is unless BOV is really BAD BOY ? ha ha.
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"Life is not a rehearsal so make the most of it" Carefully
posted January 05, 2005 01:55 PM
There is always the variable about what track you are running at. HP increases should help you quite a bit more at Daytona than, say, Loudon. Sounds to me like the guy got some nice increases and is very pleased with his results. I say good for him! And KB was spot on as usual.
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posted January 05, 2005 02:22 PM
quote:So things like gearing, tire spin, altitude, temp, wind, track conditions, etc. all come into play at improving lap times and /or winning races.
The Gospel according to KB. After finishing our first season, I have found this to oh so true.
quote:A dyno is simply a tool. It doesn't win races. It simply tells you numbers that allow you to design, change, whatever it is you want to try and do to vary those numbers to your hearts content.
More wise Gospel.
The nearest DJ250 is well over 300 miles from here. Not counting the "cruisers only" DJ250 in the northern part of the state (still around 150 miles away). The only dyno locally is an old "POS" DJ150. Still, it is an excellent tool for checking the jetting and such for our old carb'ed R6, SV650 and TZ 250 race bikes. Even though all it willdo is get us in the "ballpark", it's a start and saves huge amounts of time. On the other hand, if I did have a Power Commander, I'd be trailering my bike to either Dallas or Nashville and get it remapped on a DJ250 operated by folks who knew what they were doing with a sportbike.
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posted January 05, 2005 03:32 PM
After checking on the program that runs the dyno I do believe there is a TIMED sequence I can run. What this means is I think I can get a elapsed time to say top speed before & after tuning. I will just load the base map & do a timed run from a set speed & compare the same type run with the custom map.
This will have to wait until weather permits though. The 10 is not in my shop.
Bovine for some reason I feel this isn't going to be good enough for you. So you let me know OK?
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posted January 05, 2005 04:04 PM
zx1kr, I would love to pay you to tune my bike, but I live in reno. Is there any helpful hints you can give me to tune my bike on the dyno? Rpm ranges to work with/ look at? Any info would be great.
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posted January 02, 2005 01:48 PM
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