Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 22, 2004 10:16 AM
Edited By: redelk on 22 Nov 2004 10:17
Got back from CW Bike Show and the 10R is now OLD SCHOOL! Went to Dallas this weekend for the CMRA Awards Banquet. Sadly, our boys from Backmarker Racing didn't win any awards (we knew they didn't "recognize" 5th place), nor did we win the $18,000 race prepared '05 R6 they gave away. We hope for better luck next year.
Anyway, while we were in Dallas, we stopped by the Cycle World International Motorcycle Show. I left there disappointed and pissed. Why? Well, let's make it a "riddle" and I'll see if anyone can guess what it is. If no one guesses it by the end of today, I'll give ya'll the answer.
What does the following bikes have that the '05 ZX-10R DOES NOT have?
Yamaha R1
Yamaha R6
Kawasaki 636
Kawasaki ZX-6RR
Suzuki GSXR 1000 (I didn't check the GSXR 750 or 600 - I was too pissed by the time I got to the Suzuki booth)
I'll also give ya'll a hint. All of these bikes have a much more advanced braking system.
The part that pissed me off so much is that the 636/6RR got the improvement and the 10R did not. So much for Kawasaki keeping up with the competition. I thought claimed that they were going to take keeping their offering current and competitive SERIOUSLY. I believe my "chain" has just been "yanked".
This simple upgrade would have been stupidly simple to intergrate into the production of the '05 10R. I can not believe that KHI/KMC was unaware that both the R1 and the GSXR 1000 had this upgrade. The proof is that the 636/6RR did have this improvement as well. Probably Honda's CBRs had it as well, but I didn't look. Again, I was so pissed off, I just left the show.
This is NOT a "poser" upgrade. It is a very serious performance upgrade and is something that is also on the majority of BMR race bikes. It would address an issue that many here and at other forums have complained about since the introduction of the 10R. I personally have thought of getting an aftermarket version for some time now, but now I'll just wait for the 636/6RRs to be out for a while and see if I can't just order one ment for that model. Providing I can get it cheaper than the aftermarket version, of course.
Kawasaki has REALLY let me down on this on. I would probably be even madder than I am, but I'm still in shock that KHI/KMC has already starting to let their flagship bike fall behind the competition. I can promise you this... when the do the liter bike shoot out for '05, Kawasaki will NOT win it and this "oversight" will be one of the main reasons why. In less than 18 months, KHI/KMC has proven once again, that "dropping the ball" is still a practice that they have mastered.
Way to go Big Green. ____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 22, 2004 10:36 AM
Yep, I was pretty suprised that only the new 636 and 6RR got a radial master brake cylinder. Lever feel sure did seem much improved in comparison to the 10. However the bigger issue for me ist the changed green color. No more swapping painted parts when changing for a new bike!
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 22, 2004 01:36 PM
BINGO! We have a winner! Sadly, for '05 10R owners, they just end up being the losers.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 22, 2004 05:16 PM
Edited By: redelk on 22 Nov 2004 17:31
BD - It could be done so easily, it made no sense to NOT include it on the 10R when they were already putting it on the 636/6RR. Hell, it would be the same damn parts. There is no excuse for this and it is NOT just some "minor detail". Kawasaki might have figured out how to take "The Crown" in the world of "Ultimate Sportbikes", but they sure as hell haven't figured out how to keep it.
Now, thanks to "little oversights" or "wait till next year and we'll add it in with all the other improvements" type attitude... The last year's 10R "victory" as best sportbike will be thought of as nothing but a fluke. Eventually, some will think it was not because the 10R was actually a "superior" bike (which it was for '04), but more likely due to the other manufacturers were having a "off year".
Extreme? Nonsense? In a world where common sense and facts rule, of course it's extreme. Then again, when has the average sportbike buyers ever concerned themselves with either one? Especially when the smack talk starts. Sadly, that same smack talk be it from magazines or on the street, sells more sportbikes than and statistic in a sales brochure. My point is that to not address something like this when it has been an "issue" on various forums and the all of the others manufacturers are switching to radial master cylinders is simply .... STUPID!
HELLO? KAWASAKI? I KNOW YOUR OUT THERE! CAN YOU NOT READ? DO YOU NOT HEAR WHAT HAS BEEN BASICALLY THE ONLY COMPLAINT ABOUT YOUR WONDERFUL ZX-10R?
It must be awful quite and dark when KHI/KMC has their collective heads up their collective asses. Very dark... Very quite... As "loud" as that complaint has been voiced, if their heads were just buried in the sand, they might have gotten a clue. Not only are they clueless due to where their heads are currently located, I wouldn't even want to imaging what it smells like. I'm sure it ain't nothing like MR9. A smell commonly found at places bikes that are "competitive" can be found.
It has taken over a decade for KHI/KMC to fight their way back to the "top". The lessons learned in the 600 class is that it comes down to a fraction of time or performance can translate into "class leading" or "just as stable as a Honda". There is no "middle ground" in that class. When KHI and Yamaha introduced their new liter bikes last year, all it proved is that the liter class had become every bit as competitive as the 600 class. If not more so, since more is at stake in the liter class. Namely, brand reputation. For most of the manufacturers, the liter sportbikes are their "flagship" bike. Not because of sales, most folks realize that when it comes to total sales, cruisers rule the roost. No, liter bikes are their flagship bike because it represents their best advancements in research, technologies and manufacturing capabilities.
It is commonly said by many magazines that today's sportbikes have truly blurred the lines between "repli-racer" and the real thing. How today's bikes would eat up almost all of the best factory race bikes of less than a decade ago. In some cases, in less than half that time. The manufacturers of such bikes seem to closetly wear this fact as a "badge of honor and accomplishment". Some don't even try to hid it at all. This is for good reason. It is true and it is something one should be proud of.
Just try to do the same comparison with automobiles. Can one say that the cars available in the showroom are anywhere close to performing like say a 1990 CART PPG car? How about a F1 car? Hell, when it comes to cars, to find one that is even competitive at a local SCCA autocross will either cost you well over $50,000 or require a long list of modifications to even be a contender.
The part I find most insulting is that when given the chance, KMC seriously dropped the ball. Instead of "wandering over to the 636/6RR parts bin" and giving their flagship bike the same performance improvement blessed upon it's little brother, they chose instead to just get rid of last year's leftover parts. That is kind of an over simplification, but not far enough from the "truth". Still, just having the idea that it could possibly be an addition on the other flagship offerings would have been more than enough of a reason to include it on the '05 10R. It's would be a simple improvement that required no major or even minor changes in the 10R's production process. They would not to retool a single aspect of the assembly line to do it.
Some would ask, What's the big deal about a radial over a conventional master cylinder? The 10R's front brakes feel just fine to me. Statements like that lead me to believe that they must have not ever ridden a bike with one. It not just simply cool to have one because that's what all the racer type guys have. There is a substantial difference between the two and no set of aftermarket braided lines. brake fluid, pads or even rotors will make as big of a difference as a radial master cylinder. PERIOD!
No matter what Kawasaki does for '06, it will be that much harder to regain the "Crown" after they loss of it for '05 and I promise you that they will lose it. Sure, the "greatly improved" '06 might win some recognition, but Kawasaki's reverting back to "playing catch up" just because they are used to "coming up from behind" is going to deal Kawasaki a far greater blow then their marketing and engineering guys and gals ever imagined.
Were the is just a razor's edge of difference between all the liter bikes, so thin and so very easy to fall or get cut from, it's not a place to play around at and might be a blow that will be next to impossible to recover from. One would think that KHI almost enjoys sharing the cellar with Honda and vying for who gets third or fourth place. Kawasaki, you ain't no Valentino Rossi and one can hardly expect to "come from behind' again when they are not even in the lead pack.
I do sincerely hope that I am wrong, but the 10R's victory was so closely contested that it wasn't even a unanimous choice by either the magazines or more importantly, the consumers. Believing that they could leave the 10R basically unchanged for '05 and not even including some of the same basic upgrades used on their 600 class offerings while still thinking their bike will be the class leader for '05 is also STUPID!
Magazines have always had a fascination with the "latest and greatest", as well as "established class leaders". Battling this made last year's success for KMC all that sweeter. Now, since the 10R is not the " latest" and spending just a single year on top hardly translates into "established", the '05 10R won't even get a shot at it. The best one can hope for is that the Kawi stays ahead of that damn "great fit/finish and rock solid stable" CBR.
Does this mean I will NEVER buy another Kawasaki? Of course not. As I have always said that I am Dealer loyal, not brand loyal. Seeing as the only brands my dealer carries are Kawasaki and KTM, I'm not going to be jumping ship to Suzuki, Yamaha or even Honda anytime in the near future. Then again, if the RC8 becomes a reality and is half as good as the "average product" from KTM.... I might be looking for some orange leathers. At least with KTM, it doesn't matter which model year I by in, I'll know KTM make every improvement possible and not even the smallest of detail is overlooked or held back for each and EVERY model year to insure that their product REMAINS a class leader and not a perceived fluke.
More than I can say for KMC and their new "were not playing around anymore" policy. Well, it least they got one part right. Kawasaki can't "play around" when they aren't even a "player" in the field.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Me too............Motocross bikes are a good example of this. You snooze.......you lose......sales that is!
And what of the instrument cluster? We just want an analog tachometer that we can see in the daytime............ ____________
I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
posted November 22, 2004 10:53 PM
Damnit!! Man, I knew there was something on the bike that I could use to slow me down that was better than the parachute I've been deploying lately.
posted November 23, 2004 02:25 AM
I gotta interject two points here.
#1: I must be slow. I know that when I pull my brake lever I slow down in direct relationship to how hard I pull. I guess I'm still too unskilled or too far from the edge of the envelope to need some better "feel". I'm sure that my brakes are good enough to lock the front tire at any speed. I must admit though, most of the time when I'm braking I find myself praying that the guy behind me can brake at least as well as me. Maybe that's why I haven't been concentrating enough on feel.
#2: I don't care what place the ZX-10 lands in the magazine rankings. I fully expected someone else to wear the crown this year. I like to see that the Kawi is good enough to be considered best, but I know I would have had just as much fun at the track this year on any other liter bike. Like Sherm, I'm loyal to my dealer, not to Kawasaki. (OK, so having all green gear kinda plays a role too).
I hope I'm not labeling myself as a slow, ham-fisted track hack, but I just can't get too upset about this. If someone wants to brag about their new 2005 rocket being better than my 10R, I'll just invite them to the track like I always do.
____________
If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 23, 2004 06:56 AM
Edited By: redelk on 23 Nov 2004 09:02
Crispin - IMHO fade is related to on of many things mechanical (pad condition, fluid, etc.) and I doubt if any kind of master cylinder will make much if any difference. As for feel, its night and day difference. Brembo makes an excellent radial master cylinder.
12RPilot - My rant is intentionally overblown to a degree. Plus, ever since I rode a bike with one, I became spoiled. I have never cared what the magazines, squids and posers said. In reality, KMC does and they too has talked the talk about how they were going to be serious contenders in the sportbike wars.
I also do not plan on buy a new bike for at least a couple of years, at the earliest. My 7R, 12R and my 10R are all capable of far more than I'll ever be. My point is basically the insanity of putting it on the 636/6RR and not on the 10R. Something that would be so simple to do, all their competition did it for '05 and something KHI all ready had a vendor supplying them with such a part.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 23, 2004 08:18 AM
I'm thinkin' the ZX10r was ACTUALLY on the market for a couple of months before it was sold out. I'm thinkin'a major change wouldn't be possible before the next model needed to be on the boats. I'm thinkin' we won't be so sore in '06. I'm thinkin' that goes for alot of new models. I'm thinkin' too much.
posted November 23, 2004 11:58 AM
My lack of talent won't notice a radial master, 10R already brakes very good
Having said that rode an 04 MilleR with radial master and it rocks (compared to the standard master cyl on my 02 MilleR), but in the wet it may be overkill in my hands
posted November 23, 2004 12:06 PM
When I stop real hard my back tire comes off the ground ____________
Don't hate me because I own a 10 Hate me because you cant ride it !
posted November 23, 2004 01:00 PM
Hey there Red! Kawasaki can't be too stupid ........... read this from Roadracing News:
"Tommy and Roger's first and second place in the Supersport series proves that the previous model is a great race bike, but this new ZX-6RR is just that much better. I have no doubt that our bikes will be out front in 2005."
Josh Hayes didn't do too bad either for a totally brand new bike! ____________
"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 23, 2004 02:28 PM
Yeah RP, that's why they put radial master cylinders on all their race bikes and made it a OEM aspect on those "out front" ZX-6RRs and even the "lowly" 636.
Boman - when I stop real hard, I damn near pinch the fingers remaining on the throttle. As the OEM brakes bad? HELL NO! Are the great? Even when compared to my similarly modified 12R brakes.... no. The lever travel on my 10R is almost twice that of my old 12R. Both have braided lines, SRF fluid and have been thoughly flushed and bled with a MightyVac. I even removed the heat plates from behind the pads on the 10R (which helped a lot).
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 23, 2004 03:38 PM
I'm just messing with you red.............
I havent had any problems with my brakes for everyday riding.Im sure a radial master cylinder would help out in "Racing"situations......so would better pads, braided lines different shocks.I have heard more complaints about headshake than braking concerns.The next bike will most likely have a different master cylinder and a damper on it from the factory.If there was nothing to improve on factory bikes we wouldnt need the aftermarket components.Every bike racing has something on it that is not factory. We have the "TOP DOG" in the factory superbikes at this time........Enjoy it !!! When you're on top someone is always trying to knock you off. ____________
Don't hate me because I own a 10 Hate me because you cant ride it !
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
posted November 23, 2004 07:27 PM
Yeah, I realize that you be just playin'. The radial will be on the '06 10R and I can just about promise that. As for a damper... I believe Hell would freeze over before KHI put a OEM damper on any of their sportbikes.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted November 27, 2004 05:01 AM
Hey Red, comeon man...You know how all the bike manufacturers do things!!!
The ZX10 doesnt need any fancy factory options at this point, it sold like hot cakes!!!...Now as for the bikes that just recieved the brake upgrade, because its those little things that make us say WOW and want to own it...Advertising at its best...They sure know how to make money!!!
____________ Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
posted November 27, 2004 02:51 PM
I don't think the CBR1000RR is going to get a radial pump for '05, either. Due to the wave rotors, I would say that the 10R is one up on the all of the other '04 or '05 liter bikes. Due to the radial pump, the '04 and '05 R1 get a point back, as does the '05 G1K. So that means our beloved 10R ties the '04, '05 R1 and '05 G1K for first place in stock brake toys. Correct me if I am wrong but I think buying wave rotors for your bike is a lot more expensive than buying a radial master cylinder, if you think you just absolutely have to have one. And I think wave rotors offer more benefit to the rider than a radial master cylinder. IMHO. But the point that it would have been an easy upgrade for Kawasaki is a valid argument. But I don't think the omission should condemn the ZX10 to an automatic last place in the comparison tests. If you want something to rant about, why isn't there going to be a black ZX10. I prefer green but there is no doubt that the black is the obvious #1 choice of most people.
All times are America/Va [ This thread is 2 pages long: 12Next» ]
HOME
NEW TOPIC
posted November 22, 2004 10:16 AM
Edited By: 
posted November 22, 2004 10:36 AM
posted November 22, 2004 09:18 PM
