Cryogenic freezing of parts - Boost or Bull @ ZX10R ZONE.com

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entropy

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posted August 26, 2009 04:37 AM

Chevron has a raft of equipment and materials engineers; pockets full of pencils, miss-matched socks, read text books for fun. you know the type.

i have turned them loose on this issue.

early results from my bud, Mark "the professor" Sandberg
"It sounds a little hokey to me, especially if we are speaking about wear resistance. I can see where exposing the parts to cryogenic temperatures could modify residual stresses, but I cannot imagine how it affects wear resistance"
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Y2KZX12R

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posted August 26, 2009 04:59 AM

quote:
...pockets full of pencils, miss-matched socks, read text books for fun. you know the type.

Hey, I don't call you names!!!

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entropy

Moderator
Posts: 8671

posted August 26, 2009 05:03 AM

quote:
quote:
...pockets full of pencils, miss-matched socks, read text books for fun. you know the type.

Hey, I don't call you names!!!

sorry, i thought yr socks matched (i.e. not an engineer)

here is input for a Materials Engineer, Sam:

"There is a little bit of science and lot of hype over this subject. There are certain types of steels that can be modified by liquid nitrogen quenching. Usually it’s a martensitic grade where the liquid nitrogen helps get additional transformation, usually an incremental effect. In some cases, this could also be detrimental by introducing some martensite in a steel where we really don’t want any. You may recall that we use quench and tempered 13 CR steels in some pump casings. We can have a phenomenon called retained austenite where an exposure to much colder temps could transform the retained austenite to martensite with no subsequent tempering which could then make it more brittle or susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement.

Our group has never really pursued this subject so no authoritative guidance. We would not tell anyone they have to do it. If a machinery vendor offered it as their standard, we would want to see their data and rationale to make sure we think it was going to be helpful or neutral."

Engineers' answers are kinda predictable: I still don't know if its yes or no

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entropy

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Posts: 8671

posted August 26, 2009 05:08 AM

Edited By: entropy on 26 Aug 2009 13:09

Fred's thoughts on Sams comments.
Fred is the boss of the other engineers, a Mechanical Engineer by training, flew fighter jets in Vietnam (one of my buds, real interesting guy, and even smiles from time to time

)

"Karl. Kind of reinforces my sense that it might make the steel harder but more brittle (the unfortunate universal trade-off in treating steel), depending on the temperature-time profile. Martensite is a steel crystal that is relatively hard and brittle compared to the more ductile forms we prefer in general. Our petrochemical machinery is a balance of strength vs. softness (harder / stronger steel is more susceptible to environmental cracking). Knifes are generally martensitic for edge hardness, but as you know they are brittle and make terrible screwdrivers. So, it seems like a classical metallurgical tradeoff, and might make sense where hardness is more valuable than toughness / ductility, where the brittleness is acceptable."
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NOX

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posted August 26, 2009 06:19 AM

Karl, the big thing we found on the BBC motor we do this to, is no more cracked cranks, and no more broken rocker arms.....(class states must use stock type rocker arms), and the motor turns at 7200........, and launches at 5000.......

Could be coincidence......
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tcchin

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Posts: 867

posted August 26, 2009 08:42 AM

quote:
HIPing (Hot Isostatic Pressing) is becoming very popular for cast parts to eliminate any defects in castings.
BUT, its done HOT. Its more of a crushing process. It does help eliminate any possible porosity in cylinder heads.

I just took me a profound Hot Isostatic Pressing, and somehow I was reminded for the cryo treatment process.

entropy

Moderator
Posts: 8671

posted August 26, 2009 09:44 AM

quote:
quote:
HIPing (Hot Isostatic Pressing) is becoming very popular for cast parts to eliminate any defects in castings.
BUT, its done HOT. Its more of a crushing process. It does help eliminate any possible porosity in cylinder heads.

I just took me a profound Hot Isostatic Pressing, and somehow I was reminded for the cryo treatment process.

please expand on the methodology / results of your "profound Hot Isostatic Pressing"

Towards the end, my ex-wife subjected my parts to cryotreatment, but i don't remember it increasing hardness significantly. No actual measurements, tho.
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tcchin

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posted August 26, 2009 10:53 AM

quote:
please expand on the methodology / results of your "profound Hot Isostatic Pressing"

My methodology for Hot Isostatic Pressing is like a Kegel exercise with an overshoot. However, my process does not use any of the highly-evolved exercise equipment (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kegel_exerciser.JPG).

entropy

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Posts: 8671

posted August 26, 2009 12:44 PM

ahh this thing!

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brendasue555

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posted August 26, 2009 08:55 PM

omg
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tcchin

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Posts: 867

posted August 26, 2009 10:52 PM

"Made of smooth, polished solid stainless steel, it is cylindrical in shape, with a rounded bulge at each end. They typically weigh one pound (454g) and measure approximately 6 3/4 inches (17.1 cm) in length with a diameter of one inch (2.5 cm) at the widest part."

That ought to put some carbide particles in your intergranular spaces! I wonder if that thing has any unprecipitated martensite in it. Maybe a little dip in the old cryo tank will help transition some of those face-centered cubic areas into something a little more metastable...

EastBayDave