engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
|
posted May 14, 2004 02:09 PM
Just an example of a SIMILAR situation:
The 4-valve, 4.6 liter Mustang Cobras.
They never ran like they should have, so some companies started dyno testing them and found they were far weaker than Ford promised.
They had a massive recall to install better intake and exhaust manifolds and even discontinued production for a year to get the problems sorted out.
Mike
____________
'04 Orange 10R
  
|
Zed
Expert Class
Posts: 118
|
posted May 14, 2004 02:12 PM
quote:
I have a hard time beleiving a lemming could reach the bars. It would take one big ass lemming.
It could be a co-operative effort...
____________
Live long, and Faster
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 14, 2004 02:56 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 14 May 2004 15:58
quote:
2) How does Matt Mladen win on that old outdated Gixxer anyway?
-lukn
Probably the same way EBoz was always right behind him for several years, on every track, riding a bike that hadn't changed since 1996. Talk about old school.
DUH!
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
Iculukn
Expert Class
Posts: 200
|
posted May 14, 2004 03:29 PM
redelk - point was rider abilities, not bikes...DUH,
____________
A "99.99% open mind", is still closed!
|
scott_in_fl
Novice Class
Posts: 95
|
posted May 14, 2004 03:56 PM
Johnny, I'm glad to hear that you are so enthralled with your purchase. The point remains that a concerted effort was made to dupe the buying public. If you can't see that, or don't wish to, then that's your prerogative. I personally would have liked to see Kawasaki be more honest with us. That's all.
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted May 14, 2004 07:11 PM
dude, stop saying it like it's fact. it's a plausible theory, nothing more. there's no evidence to support ur theory and i personally doubt there ever will be.
|
johnnyboy
Expert Class
Posts: 315
|
posted May 14, 2004 07:34 PM
Scott, again, it's called marketing stratagy. Retail goes through the fore play all the time. Oh, man you look great in those, yeah, those are all you. The forth bigest lie in the world is the marketing tag line. The first biggest lie, No, I won't come in your mouth. Followwed closely by, I'm on the pill and we cannot forget, oh her, she's my cousin. You would have liked to have seen, so would I. Yeah, the winning lotto ticket on my back pocket and just like that, it ain't happinin'. Now what? If you enjoy what you have then do that, but if you are that un-happy and salty, go buy a Yamaha, Honda or Zuk. They are great bikes too and you might be happier, no one really pumped them up, did they?!
Peace, going riding on the zx?, whichever one I feel like riding tonight.
|
swft
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
|
posted May 14, 2004 08:37 PM
He's just trying to get everyone to buy into it.
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted May 14, 2004 09:00 PM
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaw! Really?
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 14, 2004 09:01 PM
I'm going to delete this thread.....
|
zeta xray
Expert Class
Posts: 416
|
posted May 14, 2004 09:05 PM
I seem to remember that some of the posts of dyno runs of bikes that are owned by individuals also got results in the 160 HP range. I doubt that Kawasaki prepared "ringers" for them as well. I would bet that most of the variation you see in dyno numbers is a result of difference in dynos, atmospheric conditions, operator, etc. I am sure that there is production line variations in bikes also. But, if you want to condemn any manufacturer for exagerating their specs, why not start looking at claimed dry weights, also. Virtually all tests say the CBR1000RR weighs 33 pounds more than the ZX10. But if I am not mistaken, I think Honda claims a lighter dry weight than Kawasaki. Ditto, Yamaha & Suzuki.
|
DB
Pro
Posts: 1932
|
posted May 14, 2004 10:20 PM
And speedometer error!! I think we ought to never buy another kawasaki again, when my speedometer reads 60mph I'm not really going 60. They say that I am but I'm not - those liars!!!!!!!
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
|
Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
|
posted May 14, 2004 11:40 PM
Kawasaki never deceived anyone. They published their claimed HP, and it makes it. How is that deceptive?
Mike,
They have no basis for a recalls when the bike makes its MSO HP and what the maker claims.
The 2001 Cobra was 20 to 30HP shy of its MSO numbers. Ford blamed the machining process not getting the proper compression.
But they compenstated on the 2003 Cobra since that car makes 25 HP more than it the claim/MSO. My Cobra made more than my Z06 though the Z06 is rated 15 HP more.
So maybe Kawi will compensate on the next ZX10 
|
engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
|
posted May 15, 2004 06:56 AM
Erich, I was just giving and example, though I realize the situation is different.
I thought that someone had found some documenation within Ford saying that they knew there was a problem, but sold and marketed them anyway.
If someone found some documentation within Kawasaki stating that they knowingly gave the magazines specially prepared bikes, there would be grounds for lawsuits, recalls, and such.
Otherwise, there will be no recourse.
Mike
____________
'04 Orange 10R
|
catd11r
Expert Class
Posts: 206
|
posted May 15, 2004 11:03 AM
Please K. Bryant, and the one Iasked if the 10r made 164.2 HP. You are the man with the plan!
____________
Life's Been Good to Me!!!!!!!!!
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted May 15, 2004 11:09 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 15 May 2004 22:34
...still...ultimately, who cares?...all four are awesome bikes for any of us mere mortals...these things are a luxury item for the vast majority...we don't need them to sustain our life...seriously, its not like water, food, or medicine...
...except for the very elite pro-racers for use these machines for a livelyhood and are sponsored and paid by the manufacturers to ride these machines anyway, who really cares if the manufacturers provided ringers to the mags?...doesn't the 'factory' ride get tweaked anyway once its in the hands of the teams and those who race them professionally?...
...other than bragging rights, tweaked or not, what difference will it make in the way you'll ride it, and ultimately, in your life as a sportbike enthusiast?...less than honest marketing techniques aside, if you have the means, buy it!...then just ride it!
...and sue for what?...seperate potential safety issues due to non-disclosure of a bad design, why?...because the bike made 10hp less than the manufacturer's claims?...on a 'lightweight' 150hp street bike?...what about the manufacturer's claimed weight?...do we sue because its heavier than advertised?...and if the bike actually weighed less and made more hp than advertised, do we sue for that, too?...ya' see where I'm going with this?
...but I digress...I personally don't need anyone's permission or affirmation to have fun with any of my motorcycle purchases...I just read, test ride (if available), buy, and ride...try it...its stress-free...you just might like it
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 15, 2004 03:52 PM
I had a very well broken in model that made over 160 hp. Period. No if, ands, or buts. Next to Doug & Rob, I have as much experience as anyone with Kawasakis. IMHO - they need alot of miles (4-5k), good valve adjustment, sync the throttle bodies, and perhaps a few minor tuning tricks, to make 160 + hp.
The averages we are seeing for most people are without a doubt, lower than the magazine bikes. No debate. But those bikes were well broken in and surely received some precise tuning. You don't think the others did the same thing? Duh! Bragging rights for this class are incredibly important to market penetration. I know Yamaha, Honda & Suzuki guys who bought the 10 because of that. None of them are bitching. They understand about precise set-up, break-in, tuning. I don't believe for a second that anyone has been mislead. As the miles pile up, and tuners start tweaking the stock state-of-tune, I would think we'd see the numbers.
And as for you worm-hole; Bless you my son. Where's my cowl!
|
nmsu
Parking Attendant
Posts: 3
|
posted May 15, 2004 04:21 PM
One other thought. I've been building motors for many years and there is always a tolerance band that you are working with on all of the parts. Some times in a production motor these stack up in your favor, sometimes not. If there was just a 3% difference between a "normal" zx10 motor and a good one or a bad one (assuming a normal motor made 155 bhp) that would be a swing of around 160 hp to 150 hp depending on if you got a good motor or a bad one. If there was a 5% difference from the average motor than the swing would approximately 163 to 147 hp. A 3% to 5% variation in a production motor isn't to hard to believe.
and you know which ones get chosen to go to the magazines.
|
top shelf
Novice Class
Posts: 99
|
posted May 15, 2004 04:28 PM
So as a new owner, I haven't really rad through all of the posts on this subject, but I can say with certainty, that my bike just came back from the dyno making 156.8 with 105 miles on it. These bikes like to be broken in deliberately and hard. I'm not talking about going out and bouncing the thing off the revlimiter, but using a deliberate and methodical approacch to seating the rings. Every good engine builder will tell you the same thing for their goal of break in, but with slightly different methods. Kawis suggestions are simply CYA because if they told you to go out and ride the crap out of it, you would probabl end up much worse. Regardless, all of this is relative. There is not a dyno in the world that can give repeatable numbers from one day to the next due to atmosphere and heat, and one dyno to the next may be high or low. I can say this that these bikes are fast and fun. Enjoy it and quit worrying about how big your d!@k is.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted May 15, 2004 09:33 PM
...how big???...hell, some of us worry about how small our dicks are instead!
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
zeta xray
Expert Class
Posts: 416
|
posted May 15, 2004 10:04 PM
Well, gee, if you guys that know all of this good s**t would come forward earlier and post your intellegent responses, us amatuers wouldn't spend so much time bantering about things we don't know anything about. I just know I love my ZX10. But lack of factual knowledge about any particular subject doesn't stop me from posting my opinion.
|
Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
|
posted May 16, 2004 11:40 AM
Edited By: Erich on 16 May 2004 12:44
Kbrayant, are you saying that that the customer ZX10 leaves the factory in a poorer state of tune than the others, or that it will see more increases from break in than the others?
I guess my question would be, will the others get the same benefits from the similar amounts of break in and precise tuning as the Kwaker would to hold station from out of the box runs, or is the customer ZX much farther off the mark that it has more room for improvement and the others don't?
Is this a case of whose production line as the best tolerance checks and QC practice?
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted May 16, 2004 12:10 PM
...maybe I just don't get it, but are we still quibblin' about maybe a 5~10hp discrepancy in a very lightweight 150+hp street licensable sportbike?...150+hp that most will never have the opportunity to excercise and use legally anyway unless they're racing on a race track...or at the 'Ring?...hell, just go ride your newly acquired steed and be happy that you even have the opportunity and good fortune to get one no matter which brand you got...enjoy, my bruthas' and sistahs, enjoy!
...could one of you more talented people tell me how much torque and horsepower it takes a 625 pound mass (ie. 200lb rider+stock ZX10R) to go from 0-60, from 60-100, 100-150, 150-185...and how much hp/tq does it take to sustain 65~75~85mph on the freeways with this same package?
...I'm guesstimating that the majority of riders who will buy or have bought this bike will use it as a fun streetbike...all kidding aside, how much of that 150+hp will they actually use on a daily basis and not get a ticket, arrested, maimed, or killed?
...150+hp is plenty on this bike...it they made the bike 50lb lighter, that 150+hp would be downright scary I imagine!...and who amongst us (other than the truly documented talented and elite) would even have the skill, savvy, and experience to control something like that?
...so...we still quibblin' about 5~10hp on this bike?...go ride yer' bikes and enjoy !
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted May 16, 2004 12:16 PM
Erich - Good questions that time will most likely tell.
To answer your first question - I would say no & yes. Break-in and precise tuning as previously suggested.
Second - I would say yes & yes. We've seen similar differences with the other brands.
Third - No, I don't believe so. Again, you're always going to prepare your best for the marketing/media release. Everyone, not just the OEM's does it.
|
Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
|
posted May 17, 2004 01:32 PM
Thanks for the reply. I guess there is no way around having to let the time pass. It'll be interesting to see how the speculation measures up no matter the outcome.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC