Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
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posted May 13, 2004 12:09 AM
quote:
So who really won the Sportrider comparo? They said the 10R won based on the ringer motor Kaw supplied that I should have known was a ringer. Should Sportrider have known? Should they have mentioned it was obvious that the bike they tested was pumped up? Obviously you knew. They are supposed to be experts. Why didn't they report it? Why did all the US press ignore this glaring, obvious incosistency? Why no cries of foul play? Lets take your logic a step further. Why not throw some oversize pistons in it for the testing? After all, smart people will see that extra 20 horsepower for what it is. What's the harm?
Depends if you beleive a company would be politically motivated to do what is in their own best interest.
So are these investigative reporters, or are these mags sales tools? How much advertising and support would you get if you scrutinized your vendors?
But I see your point. If one can not see the political motivator posed by the conflict of interest in having to sell mags while maintaining a superior vendor relationship which give you something to sell, then there is probably too little facility to make sense of any discrepancies. Glaring or subtle.
  
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marco383
Expert Class
Posts: 145
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posted May 13, 2004 03:13 AM
This forum definitely wins the award for the highest percentage of contributors who are actually fluent in english. You should see some of the illiterate shit over on the Corvette board.
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engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
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posted May 13, 2004 03:34 AM
quote:
quote:
I bought the bike to get some good 1/4 mile numbers, which hasn't happened yet.
Everyone with GSXR1000's running 9.70's near stock keep asking me why mine's not in the 9.50 range. I'm running 10.0's instead.
Mike
Thats some fast lap times stock. Since none one for cycleworld, performance bikes, sportrider, or superbike mag could break the 10.00 on a stock gixxer. But every shootout i've read, including the ones that didn't particularly like the 10R had the 10R running the fastest quater miles.
The Gixxer's that run 9.70's at 146 mph were lowered and geared, hence "near stock". Mine, lowered and geared, with an "expert" 120 lb rider, ran 10.00 at 142 mph. Hmmmm. . .
Mike
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'04 Orange 10R
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ozzy
Needs a job
need guberment cheese
Posts: 3172
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posted May 13, 2004 04:23 AM
yawn, same old crap we went thru with the 12R.
Kawi shows up at the drag strip with a ringer bike, posts big numbers. Dyno numbers not up to the hype, etc.etc.
Lemmings run out and spend their $$ to buy "the first one my dealer got in" and then are not the happy campers they thought they were going to be.
"The first one my dealer got in" isn't any more special than the 3 he gets in later that become dust collectors and he ends up selling for thousands less.
Oh there is one difference, the buyers of the left overs know what they are getting and are happy campers with extra cash in their wallet to spend on the accessories they want or need to make the bike what they hoped for.
I'm waiting.
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jeffzx998
Parking Attendant
Posts: 6
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posted May 13, 2004 06:34 AM
I don't think that I have ever seen a bike produce what the magazines say. Sport Riders dyno has always been optimistic and manufacturers have always qouted HP #s higher than reality. I did not buy my zx10 believing that it would make 164 @ the rear! I love the bike and it makes more power stock than any other bike so far.I think that Honda has been the most guilty of inflated #,s.(example929,954) these bikes were terribley exaggerated in HP #s. If you have to have a big dyno # just go from dyno to dyno until you get what you want. I myself am more concerned with gains from stock than a big #.Quoting dyno #'s is like bench racing anyways. I have ridden an 04 R1 back to back with my 10 and can say although they are close in overall performance, I am glad I purchased a zx10. I the R1 is lacking severely in midrange.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 13, 2004 10:14 AM
engineer mike, i'm not all that surprised about the fast tiems the gsxr's are putting down. even assuming you were geared the same as a gsxr (10r has stupid high gearing stick), the gsxr has a superior torque curve. 12 still beats it on top end hp, but i'll bet that torque really shows at the track. plus there's the whole issue of them being well acquainted with their bikes. i'll bet the 10r pulls even after people have sorted them out. just my uneducated theory of course.
jeff, i think u make one excellent point that alot of people seem to be missing: sportrider (and others) do print optimistic numbers. always have as far as i'v been into biking (5 years?). if sportrider publishes 164hp, i wouldnt expect to see more than mid to high 150s at best (and that's on a dj250, not on another brand of dyno). we'd have to know EXACTLY how they do their dyno runs anyway to really compare numbers.
finalyl about kawi (and probably other manufacturers too) printing inflated HP numbers, i rather doubt that. they print crank hp numbers taken at steady state (makes no sense doing an "inertia" test on an engine). when has anyone ever pulled a properly broken in engine out of a bike and put it on an engine dyno to confirm that? if i saw alot of such tests putting out less than the 172 (i think?) they claim without ram air, then u'd have reason to be pissed. as it is, if you take their 172hp number and subtract the expected drivetrain losses (common numbers i hear are 11 to 15%), u'd get low 150s RWHP at best on a steady state dyno run or DJ numbers. that seems pretty inline with what we're seeing. on a superflow or factory pro dyno, i'd expect 135 to 145 (not sure exactly how the numbers compare).
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Zed
Expert Class
Posts: 118
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posted May 13, 2004 02:20 PM
What an e-motive subject! Those dastardly manufacturers should only quote BHP, and not HP, in their advertising glossies. Use a baseline figure, then state that with induction and a futhermucker 160mph headwind, you'll gain 10bhp...
Hey engineermike, I am curious - what break-in method did you use ?(genuine enquiry, not a swipe). Hope you crack that 10.00, before you go insane... I can just see you and Worm~hole ending up as members in the local asylum.
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Live long, and Faster
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted May 13, 2004 02:34 PM
So when did KAWASAKI claim 160 hp?
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 13, 2004 03:01 PM
Zed, what exactly do u mean by BHP? i know it's definition but it is so widely misused i'm not certain what you're suggesting with that.
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Zed
Expert Class
Posts: 118
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posted May 13, 2004 03:53 PM
Zed's interpretation:
BHP = the useable (horse)power as measured by a dynamometer at the final load-point ie back wheel. Being old fashioned, I like the term better than RWHP (RWBHP?). Anyway, I could be totally wrong - but that's the power of interpretation...
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Live long, and Faster
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engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
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posted May 13, 2004 04:27 PM
I didn't go over 4k rpm before 500 miles and 6k rpm before 1000 miles for "prolonged periods". An occasional full throttle blast every 50 - 100 miles may have occurred. I didn't go over 4k rpm at all for the first 100 miles.
BHP = brake horsepower, or the amount of power an engine produces when applied to a brake, i.e. steady state operation, per Eddy current or Water brake dyno.
This is unlike Dynojet-style dyno's (inertial dyno's), which measure how quickly an engine can accelerate a rotating mass. Inertial effects of the drivetrain, transient engine response, and gear ratio all effect the outcome of an inertial dyno. For instance, a bike with superlight tires, rims, sprockets, crank, flywheel, etc, will make more inertial hp than the opposite because less power goes into accelerating these drivetrain parts.
Mike
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'04 Orange 10R
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Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
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posted May 13, 2004 06:23 PM
Mr Freek, the Sportrider numbers aren't really optimistic as much as they seem to be misunderstood. I think in your concluding statement you lumped superflow and factory together with expected absolute values lower than DJ, but the fact is superflow read higher than DJ and factory reads lower.
So that SR number are higher than DJ is to be expected, but not by ZX margins (more like 2 to 4). while factory runs 13 to 15% lower than DJ.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 13, 2004 08:25 PM
that superflow numbers would be higher than DJ numbers is news to me. i'v always heard they are considerably lower because they do not (by default) calculate BHP from an inertia test. of course that's assuming you're actually running the superflow in inertial mode. if you run it steady state, it should get similar numbers to a dynojet in either mode. if i;m not mistaken the superflow can output "DJ numbers" if you want it to tho. all depends on HOW you run the dyno, as i keep harping on.
zed, engineermike has the definition i understand to be true also.
btw, i always hear DJ dynos being referred to exclusively as inertia dynos. this is true of the 150/200 model, but the 250 includes a retarder so it can be run in either mode. factory pro always comes with a retarder, and superflow can be purchased with or without. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW YOUR VARIABLES BEFORE YOU MAKE EXPECTATIONS OF THE RESULTS!
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted May 13, 2004 08:52 PM
Fellas, how many of you actually did the math on the numbers that were posted? 15% drivetrain loss(175 hp sae(cert of orgin) x 15%=26.25; 175 - 26.2 = 148. This is what most of the 10 owners will have until their break in is complete. I am not talking about the intial break in, I am talking about the motor loosing up. The avg bike will get around 153-155 once this is done. The ram air should net you around 154-157 hp. Either way, this bike weighs less then all the others and puts out more hp then them aswell. What is the problem? This is the 1st time that the mags has even liked the kawi products. The reason being, they can not dispute the power of this machine, nor can they ignore the weight. Mike, I don't know how many miles you have on your bike, but it will take some time to work out the small issues, like gearing and launches for you. That rider that you had riding might not be as good as you think he is...... I am not saying he not, but there is something wrong when he can't run 9's something on a bike that light with a 144 plus hp. I ran 9:95 with my stock wheel based 12, with a 16 front and muzzy pipe, no pc. I weighed 205 and cut a 1:70 60 ft.
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DB
Pro
Posts: 1932
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posted May 13, 2004 08:54 PM
engineermike - another variable in 1/4 mile times is how a bike hooks up its power to the ground. All the power in the world is no good if you can't get traction. Also the shorter wheelbase of the 10r has to be a hindurance to good 1/4 mile times.
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Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted May 13, 2004 08:55 PM
Oh yeah, my friend dynoed his 10r with 90 miles on it, it dynoed 142 rwhp. I am not sure if the dyno reads low, but 142 on a bike with 90 miles on it is great. He is using the ride da hell out of it breakin technique! He has 600 miles on it now, I will post what it dyno's this weekend on the same dyno.
justoyz
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 13, 2004 08:56 PM
dont mean to nitpick, but in the interest of keeping misinformation at bay, it's 175PS claimed by kawi, not 175HP SAE.
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Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
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posted May 13, 2004 11:43 PM
Well better to hear it late than never 
Both Superflow and Factory use load modules for steady state, but he Superflow has an inertial mode that produces number like a DJ does.
Its true on their car dyno that the Superflow reads lower than a Dynojet, but its the other way around on their bike dynos in intertial mode.
You dont have to take my word for it. If you look at some of the numbers that are done in that way (like SR uses) you will see they are consistently higher by a small margin. Either that, or SR somehow consistently gets stronger bikes then all the other magazines do. That obviously is not the case, but once you look at some other values, you'll see they speak for themselves.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 14, 2004 10:25 AM
interesting info about the superflow erich. i guess when SR uses their superflow in inertial mode, they have it output superflow's estimation of "dynojet" numbers. they prolly have the calculations not quite right and thus end up with slightly higher numbers. i know the superflow can also output inertial rwhp numbers which are by nature lower, but i guess SR just doesnt use this mode. would be nice if everyone used true steady state mode for publishing dyno figures since there are jsut too many variables when doing inertial dyno pulls.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted May 14, 2004 10:32 AM
quote:
Lemmings run out and spend their $$ to buy "the first one my dealer got in" and then are not the happy campers they thought they were going to be. I'm waiting.
...hey! I'm not a lemming, but I am a happy camper...fish_antlers on the other hand, is a gerbil...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
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posted May 14, 2004 10:46 AM
I have a hard time beleiving a lemming could reach the bars. It would take one big ass lemming.
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted May 14, 2004 10:49 AM
And he'd hafta be over 21.
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted May 14, 2004 11:31 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 14 May 2004 12:34
"He is using the ride da hell out of it breakin technique! "
hahahaha. I think thats funny; no punt to anyone just find verbage funny after all the opinions which have been expressed on the forum.
ZX-10R is fastest bike I have ever had; rest of bike measures up to a dream come true. (with Scotts added steering damper that is)
Carry on please....
Have fun;stay alive.
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Scott_in_FL
Novice Class
Posts: 95
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posted May 14, 2004 11:32 AM
This is a fun thread. There's nothing like spirited debate.
However, the issue is not whether Kawasaki's printed representations are accurate (i.e. 175PS), but whether they knowingly provided ringer bikes to magazines expecting the dyno results and riding reviews to be printed and relied upon by prospective purchasers.
I think they are guilty of that accusation.
Are they guilty of claiming 175PS static at the crank? Probably not. Who the hell knows how they acheived the number or, for that matter, what it even means. Then, who came up with the correction factor to correlate a countershaft number to a rear wheel number? At first it was 10%. Then it became 10-12%. Now, it's 15%? Geez, keep going any further and we'll be convincing ourselves that 135hp is what we should have expected. Then, when your bike turns 140hp on the dyno, you'll be happy. Right?
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johnnyboy
Expert Class
Posts: 315
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posted May 14, 2004 01:02 PM
This is funny, not that I would consider it fun though. I am sure that you have been reading, riding and owning bikes for a minute or two, that being you surely don't live your life or base your purchases by others experiences. You stated that you race or want to, that usually entails vehicle development of some sort and well as education (see riding skill) and suspension setup, tyre choice, fuel management enhancement, exhaust upgrade, degreeing of cams, filter upgrade (see tuning). Things will change as the bike you bought is not at the same level of performance as the bike that you race. If it is, then you clearly do it just for the practice. At which point you would have no complaint. But, you do and trying to assign guilt is not going to satisfy your desire for more horse power or admitting that the bikes used in the comparisons were somehow enhanced. So what if they were... What now? What are you going to do and what the point you are trying to make is. Companies are run by people and people are not beyond lying to get what they want and if doing so they make the sale. Big freaking deal, were you held at gun point and made to purchase this bike? Me either, I bought mine because I wanted another Kawasaki that handled better than the monster 12R. I had the deposit on it in August, long before there was a comparison or bikes ridden publicly. It didn't have to make more HP, but I am glad it is close. I wanted red, but it came in everything but the colour I originally wanted. There are superficial things about this machine that I wish I had some input on, but it is still a great bike and I am glad to have it regardless of what anyone else thinks about it or me.
Peace,
Johnny
P.S. Enjoy the ride.
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