Scott_in_FL
Novice Class
Posts: 95
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posted May 12, 2004 01:17 PM
 Edited By: Scott_in_FL on 12 May 2004 14:20
160hp my ass!!!
I'm tired of the dyno numbers. The magazines are all full of shit! The truth of the matter is that no stock ZX-10 that any of us bought can post a 160 dyno number. Kawasaki duped everyone by providing ringer bikes to the mags in an effort to incite buying pressure before this bike was released.
I don't care how anyone here wants to rationalize it. We've heard plenty of folks say "it's plenty for me" or "it really doesn't matter" or they cite other crap like the correction factor at sea level, the humidity, the air quality in the dyno room, etc. It's all a bunch of bullshit.
Am I pissed? Yes, to some extent. The bike is great overall, but I bought it for racing purposes and I thought I was getting the baddest fuckin' mofo out there.... by far! Now, I learn the bike is not 10-15 hp stronger than the Gix, but only 3 or 4. Hell, I would have kept my Gix 1k, and saved the $5k in costs associated with moving to a completely new racing platform.
In retrospect, of the new bikes, it turns out that the new R1 is probably the best bike. The entire superstock podium is all blue each week, and the bike was recently detailed at length in a very interesting read in Roadracing World. They took a stock R1 (lights and all) and ran it in an AMA Superbike race and finished 11th. Now that's a track test! I doubt very seriously that they could do that with a ZX-10R.
Internet forums are about the freedom to voice opinions, right? Well, you've heard mine. Let the flames begin.
  
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted May 12, 2004 01:23 PM
Can't quite put my finger on it but I think I've heard this somewhere before.......
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Broken Wind
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted May 12, 2004 01:27 PM
We're not gonna flame you, just laugh at you... 
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chitty chitty bang bang
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Iculukn
Expert Class
Posts: 200
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posted May 12, 2004 01:54 PM
1st - I wanted a Gixxer. Carred that longing for about two years. Then I started reading all the information available on the 10R. This started around a year ago. I had thought a lot about the R1 and I waited daily while home on leave until the call came thru. You pick your passion, it's your choice. Freedom of speach, no need to mention it. Heck dude, if your not happy with it sell it and go back or make it better and share the way.
Two questions:
1) Why are You letting the other riders beat you?
2) How does Matt Mladen win on that old outdated Gixxer anyway?
-lukn
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A "99.99% open mind", is still closed!
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johnnyboy
Expert Class
Posts: 315
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posted May 12, 2004 01:54 PM
Man, only $5000 into the bike, it can't be close to being developed to the point of its potential or you for that matter. Come on man, you are obviously old enough to know better and if you race, you should know better. This is what they call marketing stratagy, people get paid to do this and it does work. There are some 10R's out that are producing those numbers, big thing is breakin. Doesn't need to be 1000 miles, I have never seem a race motor run on a dyno for that long, rather heat management during the ring seating process. Does acual HP numbers make it a better race platform? Right, NO. If people are so stuck on what the magazines write about these machines to actaully steer the purchasing choice, then read them all. There was no bike review when I made my decision as my deposit was posted in August. And now people get angry, hmm, breast implants, cigarettes, 3 wheel ATV's and those that eat contraceptive jelly and get pregnant. Wow, ain't America a cool place? You can say anything and do anything you want to and if you have enough money you can get away with DUI, DWI and even murder.
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saltnuts
Expert Class
Posts: 115
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posted May 12, 2004 01:57 PM
Yep!! The mags also inflate the HP on the other 3 bikes. So still on top. I also had a thou and if you cant find alot better value in the 10 I feel sorry for ya. Good luck, I think it will all work out in the long run.
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engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
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posted May 12, 2004 02:19 PM
I bought the bike to get some good 1/4 mile numbers, which hasn't happened yet.
Everyone with GSXR1000's running 9.70's near stock keep asking me why mine's not in the 9.50 range. I'm running 10.0's instead.
Mike
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'04 Orange 10R
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JNM
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted May 12, 2004 02:51 PM
The problem with this situation is that we still don't have enough information. The numbers seem to be all over the place. I do think Scott has a reason to be pissed - especially if he is only dynoing 3-4 up on the competition. And I'm sorry, but depending on the track, HP does indeed make a difference. There is nothing more frustrating than passing a slower rider in the turns only to have him pass again on the straight and hold you up for a turn or two.
But as I said at the top, we don't have enough information. There seems to be enough concern that maybe the mags should take a few production bikes and run them on the same dynos. Sure conditions will be different, but not enough to show the variance we believe we are seeing. I would be fuming if indeed it turns out Kawasaki did give the mags ringers. Mazda tried that and it didn't end pretty. Until then, I will continue to enjoy my ZX10 and put my trust in Kawasaki that there are no shenanigans going on here. FWIW, I did have the opportunity to test ride both the ZX10 and CBR1000 back to back. After frequent visits to redline on both bikes, the ZX did feel quite a bit stronger from 7K up and the top end hit was much more manic than the CBR.
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CCS #428
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jimp
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Posts: 291
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posted May 12, 2004 03:01 PM
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Where's my 14 ???
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marco383
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Posts: 145
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posted May 12, 2004 03:36 PM
If the test bikes are ringers, I'd love to know how Kawasaki pulled it off. More compression? Unlikely, since the mags run their test bikes on pump gas. Hotter cams? Wouldn't that result in suspiciously high/choppy idling? Different ECM maps? If that alone could give 5-10 additional horespower, why wouldn't all of our bikes have them, since programming is free? The only remaining possibility seems to be improved porting or other head work. Am I missing something here?
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papawheelie
Expert Class
Posts: 381
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posted May 12, 2004 03:42 PM
Everyone is screaming and yelling about a BRAND NEW BIKE!! Wait a few years until there is some R&D done on the 10r and whatch what happens. Give it time.
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bluedevil
Expert Class
Posts: 115
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posted May 12, 2004 04:16 PM
I know from the old school of thought and through reading mags since the early 80's that the first production bikes off the assembly line are closer to the engineering specs which produce more horse power as the engineers intended. I started to believe that back in 1985 when I had the 121st VFR interceptor built in the world and was killing 1000 machines when I lived back in Los Angeles. Now, it might be worth checking HP numbers by the production number from the 10R you have. Mine was the 10,000 10r built from the assembly line. You can fiqure out which one you have by the last 6 digits of your VIN.I havn't dynoed mine yet because I have only 200 miles on it, but I would love to see numbers from earlier production line machines. This is just a thought of how the mags could have gotten better numbers.
Blue Devil
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engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
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posted May 12, 2004 04:17 PM
When I started researching the '04 1000's, I noticed that the ZX-10R had the highest compression, shortest stroke/biggest bore, and biggest valves (taking the R1 out of the comparison due to the 5 valve head). With a Ti exhaust, dynamic-flow-analysis designed ports, huge throttle bodies, and claimed quick ramps on the cams, I figured it has all the stuff to make more power. So, when the dyno numbers were published by Sportrider.com, I wasn't surprised.
I guess I'm agreeing with marco383 and don't understand exactly what could be different when everything is basically max'ed out for a street 1000.
Mike
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'04 Orange 10R
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catd11r
Expert Class
Posts: 206
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posted May 12, 2004 04:49 PM
I love my 10R, I was curious about the HP numbers, ( see other post),but I bought mine cause it has great potential.
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Life's Been Good to Me!!!!!!!!!
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zeta xray
Expert Class
Posts: 416
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posted May 12, 2004 05:48 PM
6 or 7 months ago, I told people if the ZX10 was a good as the Gixxer 1K, I would be happy. I am definitely happy. I raced a '03 Gixxer that had the normal tweeks, full Yoshi exhaust, PCIII, K & N. And our bikes were pretty much dead even. Now some people might think that sucks, but that seems pretty good to me. And I broke mine in slow and easy.
At a track day this last weekend at TWS a rider on an '04 R1 blasted past me coming out of turn 15 going up on the front straight. I had talked to this rider the night before. His bike is stock (except for rearsets) and so is mine. He is a much better rider than I am (should be obvious) but when I got on the gas I started reeling him in without the benefit of any draft or external influence. He never saw it because he didn't have any mirrors. I looked at it as my consolation for getting my doors blown off by a superior rider. I figured I would be the only one who really knew for sure what happened. Then a little while later another rider came up and asked me if I was pulling up on the Yamaha, because that is what it looked like to him. I told him what I thought happened. He agreed. By the way, he was riding another R1..... So the way I look at it, he had more speed in his favor before I got the throttle wide open. I made up that disadvantage and more. Not too bad. IMHO.
Yeah, I am happy.
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Erich
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Posts: 131
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posted May 12, 2004 06:05 PM
quote:
When I started researching the '04 1000's, I noticed that the ZX-10R had.... , shortest stroke/biggest bore,...
Mike, the R1 has the shortest stroke and biggest bore.
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engineermike
Expert Class
Posts: 101
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posted May 12, 2004 06:33 PM
Yes, but I also said "taking the R1 out of the comparison due to the 5 valve head".
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'04 Orange 10R
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Erich
Expert Class
Posts: 131
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posted May 12, 2004 06:46 PM
I said this on the other forum, but Yamaha also pulled a fast one, but it may have been more subtle. This has to do with there less than impressive midrange and the notable dip. I beleive they purposely started selling them as they realized if a dyno was done, it would have hurt sales. Almost reverse marketing by hiding an aspect they knew was problematic.
Ringer. You have to choose for yourself based on what you see and/or choose to beleive. If you look at a dyno of 160 and work backward to get the crank HP using a conservative 12% mechanical loss, you get a crank HP or 181(no ram air). Now Kawi says that figure is 172(no ram air). But few asked why the magazine bikes made more than the manufactures claims. If you did ask yourself but still choose to beleive it, then shame on you, not Kawasaki. If you realize that and figured the magazine bikes were special but still expected to make the same power, then shame on you.
Getting 8 to 10 extra HP and hiding it without leaving external evidence is easy. Ask any supersport engine builder.
Now on Toye using the R1 in Superbike. Well, it was a sponsored entry. Was it his bike of choice? I'd have to say no since when he wants to cut fast laps at his home track (willow springs), he still uses his developed GSXR. He cuts faster laps on it than the R1 from what I got.
On the R1 sweeping the podium at Sears Point, well, Yamaha seems to be more heavily vested in development and factory support, and has had more development time. And argueably, they may have more talent. Or at least more consistent talent.
But comparing factory racebikes to your bike is almost impossible. The stuff you cant see is where the trickery is at. Look just at the forks and the adjusters will tip you that the only similarity is the slider and outer tube. The cartridges and tops cost thousands alone and dramatically alter the suspension. So its hard to say what the Superstock comparisons really say.
Sure in worldwide racing the R1 is bloodying the ZX10s nose, but give the Kawi some development and better factory support and it should win its first pro race.
I have yet to see an R1 vs ZX10 real world account. On the R1 fourm I hear the R1 reels in or out accelerates the ZX10, on the Kawi forum its the opposite. But what else can you expect. All it tells you is the two are that close to one another.
The mags will not retest. Kawi will not allow it if they know they purposely sent out ringers. The bike makes what Kawasaki claims it did, so no problems with regulatory bodies.
I have to say though, I am surprised that it taken this long for this to come up on a Kawasaki based forum. But it also sounds like most realized the magazine where about marketing and its all pretty inconsequental.
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Erich
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posted May 12, 2004 06:57 PM
Edited By: Erich on 12 May 2004 19:59
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zx10Roger
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Posts: 114
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posted May 12, 2004 08:32 PM
All I have to say is if you are racing a new litre bike you better get the jump,cause they are so close,nobody is running away from any body.
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pmkin10r
Expert Class
Posts: 191
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posted May 12, 2004 08:41 PM
Erich as always I find your observations astute and logical. And as a forum, I feel the ZX-10R owners and enthuisiasts are more interested in facts than hyperbole.
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CDRacingZX10R
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted May 12, 2004 09:22 PM
quote:
I bought the bike to get some good 1/4 mile numbers, which hasn't happened yet.
Everyone with GSXR1000's running 9.70's near stock keep asking me why mine's not in the 9.50 range. I'm running 10.0's instead.
Mike
Thats some fast lap times stock. Since none one for cycleworld, performance bikes, sportrider, or superbike mag could break the 10.00 on a stock gixxer. But every shootout i've read, including the ones that didn't particularly like the 10R had the 10R running the fastest quater miles.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted May 12, 2004 09:35 PM
quote:
...Ringer. You have to choose for yourself based on what you see and/or choose to beleive. If you look at a dyno of 160 and work backward to get the crank HP using a conservative 12% mechanical loss, you get a crank HP or 181(no ram air). Now Kawi says that figure is 172(no ram air). But few asked why the magazine bikes made more than the manufactures claims. If you did ask yourself but still choose to beleive it, then shame on you, not Kawasaki. If you realize that and figured the magazine bikes were special but still expected to make the same power, then shame on you...
So who really won the Sportrider comparo? They said the 10R won based on the ringer motor Kaw supplied that I should have known was a ringer. Should Sportrider have known? Should they have mentioned it was obvious that the bike they tested was pumped up? Obviously you knew. They are supposed to be experts. Why didn't they report it? Why did all the US press ignore this glaring, obvious incosistency? Why no cries of foul play? Lets take your logic a step further. Why not throw some oversize pistons in it for the testing? After all, smart people will see that extra 20 horsepower for what it is. What's the harm?
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CDRacingZX10R
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted May 12, 2004 09:45 PM
Edited By: CDRacingZX10R on 12 May 2004 22:54
Honestly the there have been three magazines that I noticed that had the 10R with unusually high #'s. One was sportrider, obviously either it was a good day to dyno or that bike was just a little better than all of ours. But for the most recent test, Sport rider claimed to actually purchase the motorcycle, while the first one dynode was a preproduction unit. But 160 is still to high. The other two magazines where eroupean based and honestly I don't know why there numbers were so high.
The majority of reliable magazines I have read, mostly the British magazines always had the ZX10R putting out the most horsepower. And the average fairs somewhere out some where in the middle of 151/155 rear wheel without ram air assistance.
Kawasaki never claimed to be putting out 160 at the rear wheel. They only claimed to be producing 184 at the crank with the ram air all stuffed up coke head style. And ram air numbers tend to be VERY subjective.
As for the comment on podium wins? Well, honestly the R1's have a lot going for them. Besides the bikes in stock form being very close in terms of power, Yamaha has always had excellent race development programs. Yamaha has been working with Graves since August of last year with preproduction R1's, where Kawasaki was extremely late on in the development department.
Ironically an interview on Amasuperbike.com with Hayes before the last race said that he is still not that confident because of lack of aftermarket parts being developed. These things take time.
Another thing that I'd contribute towards a upper hand Yamaha has is its talent to pick good riders. Not that Tommy Hyden and Rodger aren't great riders, but seriously they are still babies in the world of 1000cc. And don't give me that Tommy rode superbikes when he started, he rode them and sucked badly on them and dropped down to 600's which is a much better place to start. Rodger and Tommy are very good, and the least experienced if you are comparing them to Jaime Hacking, Arron Gobert, Damon buckmaster... I mean jesus look at there race history for winning on amaproracing.com, and then look at Tommys and Rodgers. Were talking a very short list in comparison.
Now before someone says I'm just making excuses, let me say I'm not. It was literally a coin toss for either the new R1 or 10R. I went for the 10R because Im in love with the slipper clutch and how it feels when I sit on it. Because I have past good experianec with the 636, and the price I got was almost 1.6k less than the best price I could get on an R1. All that added up for me. All I know is at Daytona, the biggest horsepower track in the country, all the bikes out there looked about even.. Well, the R1 and 10R wise that is and the only place I saw a difference was coming out of corners where it looked like the 10R had a bit more punch. The bikes where so close the draft really won the race. And Rodger really is to much of a novice to know he was being setup that last lap in the draft. That's the main Reason tommy hung back there around 6th, because he know he could just hang with them and use the draft.
All I know is get the bike that makes you happy. You as good as you are, are most likely never going to be as good as anyone running the AMA top 10's. So let your own results be your own guide.
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guamaniac
Expert Class
Posts: 164
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posted May 12, 2004 10:14 PM
Another note for the bikes in Superstock concerning the R1 vs the 10R is the amount of riders Yamaha (factory) riding compared to the Kawasaki (factory) riders...All the races are pretty close and the one constant is T.Hayden on the 10R....but you can' t tell me that those Yamaha guys don't work as a team out there and try to work together and make sure the "others" don't get past them....
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