Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted April 25, 2004 02:53 AM
I don't believe I mentioned anything at all about motorcycles at all. I made no statement on how *anyone* should or should not feel about *any* brand or model of motorcycle. I simply questioned your intent in the following statement:
quote:Honestly the problem lies in this whole process around the need to declare a king, or even own a king.
Furthermore, your question:
quote:So if I get you right, only a ZX10 owner is an enthusiast now? Or something else?
Is absurd. You have placed my question in a seperate context. I don't believe anyone stated that anywhere in this thread, and your attempt to pin that statement on me amounts to 'fishing'. If you were to review a number of threads on this board, you will find that myself and others have repeatedly used the phrase 'no bad bikes' and other terms to describe the current crop of superbikes.
In the last part of your reply to my questions, you stated:
quote:I never said anything derogatory that I was aware of. Rather pointed out some other observations or findings. However, if you are saying that membership requires uncounditional support of positive claims for the given model while leaving out any other objective facts or experiences that do not support them, then let me know.
I'm still new here, so if saying all bikes are equally good is offensive or against policy, I apologize.
This is classis passive-agressive behavior, in which you make an open apology for non-offending behavior, hoping that the preponderence of the board will respond to your 'plight' with assurances and statements that you did not offend anyone.
I can honestly say that your statments did not offend me, and if my questions offended you, then let me apologize for that. I was questioning what I saw as a concept of non-competitiveness in the manufacture and marketing of motorcycles. While that may work for the cruiser and touring segment of the market, it most certainly doesn't work for any motorcycle involved in any form of competition. Competition improves the breed. If this board seems overenthusiastic in it's praise of the 10R, cut these guys some slack, it's been a long time coming.
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
posted April 25, 2004 03:12 AM
quote: If this board seems overenthusiastic in it's praise of the 10R, cut these guys some slack, it's been a long time coming.
...yeah...what he said...kudos for the Green Machine for steppin' up to bat with this awesome motorcycle and hitting a grand slam of a hyper-sport street bike (even if my next Kawasaki turns out to be black in color )
____________ “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
posted April 25, 2004 03:20 AM
...btw...ALL of the present mfg's sportbikes are more than capable of satisfying most sportbikers wants and needs...if I had the dosh, I'd have every mfg's sportbike in my climate controlled vehicle storage facility and enjoy each of them for what they are...imho, of course ____________ “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
posted April 25, 2004 05:24 AM
one of the things i like about this board (more than the R1 forum) is that you don't see people posting "this is a zx-10 board..why don't you go back to your [cbr, r1, g1k] board...blah blah blah"
posted April 25, 2004 06:43 AM
Cycle World Shootout Aren't we comparing apples with oranges?
As a subscriber to eight (8) different bike magazines (and a reader of more) I must point to the fact that some magazines mention rwhp, others report figures at the clutch and still others at the crank.
More differences are due to the brand and type of Dyno used, ambient temperature etc.
Some mags even test the bikes on damp or drying tracks and then print their findings as conclusive.
To complicate things, more often than not magazines and their journos are biased towards one brand or another and likely more towards those brands which offer them more "extras" (a.i. free rides, accommodations, free this or thats.....). Frequenting journo circles regularly I know this to be a fact.
The result of this all is that the readers of these mags get incorrect information.
The correct stock figures quoted by Kawasaki are as follows:
ZX10R 175*stock - 184* with ram air effect
Both Motorrad and PS Magazine, the two top German bike magazines, have tested the new 1000 cc bikes for true performance on the same dyno (same day) and on the road.
These two magazines are among the very few which I consider more or less unbiased as they buy most of the bikes they test so they don't get any special prepped or blue printed "ringer" version of a certain model. The quality and depth of their tests is without equal throughout the bike magazine community
The results for the ZX10R were as follows:
power output at the clutch without ram air effect:
ZX10R : 168 HP at 11700rpm - torque 112 Nm at 9500rpm
Acceleration and top speed test 0 - 200kph (+/- 124mph):
ZX10R : 7.5 sec - max speed : 295kph (183.34mph)
The above power output corresponds favorably with 150 rwhp and 171+ hp at the crank, pretty close ain't it?
Ninja Rider
As soon as my 10R is broken in I'll post my own findings
____________
Don't lie, cheat or steal, the government doesn't want any competition
posted April 25, 2004 08:35 AM
The king is dead! long live the king! that green one over there, it is faster, has more power, and is lighter than the others. Did i mention it stops better also? let me break this dyno thing down for you cats, zx-10 is gonna be 6 to 10 hp up on the gixxer on the same dyno on the same day all the while being 10 pounds lighter..... power to weight goes to the 10 by a pretty good margin, all else is subjective, long live the new King..............
____________
chitty chitty bang bang
posted April 25, 2004 09:47 AM
Well, it does seem just a tad suspicious...the ZX-12 claimed 183 HP at the crank w/o any ram air boost and put out 160-162HP at the wheel on the Motorcyclist / Sportrider dyno. The 175HP w/o ram air ZX-10 puts out 164? Thats a very small loss to the wheel and is not consistent with normal crank HP to Rear wheel loss. Let's not forget that Motorcyclist single handedly caused Kawasaki a lot of pain and lost sales with their review of the ZX-12 back in 2000.
Or maybe Kawasaki engineers just built a killer engine with a lot of HP like they always do.
Why does everyone get so wound up about this HP thing anyway? As if a bike that weighs less than 400lbs and has 150HP at the wheel can be considered "underpowered". Think it's time for a reality check.
quote:Why does everyone get so wound up about this HP thing anyway?
Nevermind a horsepower or two. What really counts, is the lap times posted around racetracks. And the only time you need test acceleration from 0 to anything, is when racing to get to corner 1 first.
____________
black ZX-10R
posted April 25, 2004 10:33 AM
Well I was going to say: Heh this is a ZX10R board so please p*ss off with yer R1/Gix/CBR but I am afraid (some) people take it serious
But I think it has been said lots and lots of times these SS1000 are so close that each one of them will win on or more comparo's. Apart from the Gixxer, which is one year old and to the mind of these testers old=outdated=cannot win.
And this has happened. It just the opinion of the testers. And those dyno's? Well in the UK the ZX10R was not the strongest, in some German test's it was the strongest. Funny thing: in Holland two mags tested the exact same bikes. In one test the ZX10R had the most power in the other the R1.
I have read a few dyno report from owners. One in Holland broke his bike in on the dyno. After 37 runs he had 160 SAE HP at the wheel. Reports from couple of German guys give the same result, twice it has been 162 SAE HP at wheel.
Personally I don't care. I love my ZX10R and intend to ride tthe wheels of it
If you have a ZX10R, you're lucky enjoy
If you have a CBR1000RR, you're lucky enjoy
If you have a R1, you're lucky enjoy
If you have a GSRX1000, you're lucky enjoy
If you have a MV1000F4, you're lucky just get another bike to ride when your F4 is in the shop
Me I am boring, I just want everybody to be happy with his/her bike
posted April 25, 2004 11:08 AM
The Scandinavian Bike magazine tested the 1K bikes in Spain a while back. Circuit times were run at the Valencia circuit and other data was measured at the Idiada test facility (it has supposedly the fastest 6km long oval circuit which is dug underground for windprotection for top speed testing). The interesting thing was, that two separate bikes from each manufacturer were tested in the same dyno, at the same time. The dyno data results (measured at the clutch, correction factor used not stated) were:
The fact still stands, I had no 'intent', but that does not matter. Nor my experience around the tuning in question. I never got down on guys or whatever your last statement implied. I cannot effect someones enthusiam, that is there own choice.
Seeking validation of that choice, which is what this whole king thing is about, is what I question. Even for myself. But you know what seeking validation is about, but lets to ahead and ignore that one.
You choose to infer intents and question me. When I respond you attack me, and will no doubt dissect anything I say.
I do not see a difference between my making assumptions about your meaning (which you term taking out of context) versus your making an inference that I have an agenda by question me. That is the same, but it is not passive.
So is that a better way to go??
Ironically you are doing exactly what you accuse me of in this public demonstration. The best manner to have done this was privately. Yes, I could do this privately, but I now see this as somewhat personal and make my feelings be know.
But really, I did not see why it was OK to let everyone jump on Palm, he just had an opinion and is a ZX guy, But you let all that go. Interesting thing though.
posted April 25, 2004 01:01 PM
Well I love my bike first of all,but it seems funny how the mag bikes are all over 160 rwhp and the 2 I saw dynoed one was mine and another guys 146-147 rwhp both broken in to manufacturers reccomendations.That's a far cry from 160 as far as valves being adjusted and throttle body synch the friggin thing is brand new should atleast be close.It was a fairly new dynojet 250 I agree dynoes are all different but 15 hp.Most I've seen is around low 150s.I am not losing sleep over it,just seems odd.
posted April 25, 2004 03:44 PM
1)Again, mags use corrected hp for altitude and temperature. If we rely on a magazine to boost our ego we're all in trouble.
2) What most of us really need is to become better riders to use all this power the superbikes of today put out. So what we should be doing is going to track days and practicing.
3) And no matter what brand bike you ride or whichever size, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
posted April 25, 2004 08:26 PM
First of all has nothing to do with egos I'm 45 years old not 20 and do not have to have the hottest bike.But if I buy a bike and all I've seen is 160 something rwhp .I would expect mine to be somewhere near that is all I'm saying.Like I said before I love the bike it just seems odd the BIG dicrepancy and 15 rwhp is a lot.
posted April 25, 2004 08:55 PM
You know - this is a pretty good thread. I've often wondered about the validity of magazine dyno tests as well. I've seen my '12 hit mid 170's (consistantly on multiple days/dynos) on the dyno after Muzzy exhaust, K&N's, PC-IIIr and no Kleen air, but in that case, most of the mags said (with similar mods) they "only" got in the 160's for HP?? It seems that some bikes get "beefed up" and some get "beefed down". Strange. I guess the only REAL way to tell anything is to dyno your own and see what happens.
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
posted April 25, 2004 09:07 PM
my 00' 12R only dynoed 165hp stock and I was happy with that...never really got to use 165hp much anyway...got to brag about it, though...shocked and awed the Harley guys and car guys...then I added a full Muzzy, K&N, and a PC3R...a slight crotch-o-the-pants improvement, but still never ever got to use all of it...just bragged s'more ____________ “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
posted April 25, 2004 09:27 PM
My my, why is it when a Kawasaki does something good, it's gotta be a scam or ringer. Did any of you ZX10 owners look at your MSO, the government requires a rating of HP on it, be measured at the crank or rear wheel. For the 10 that number is 175......................
No magazine testing a bike today in comparisons is using a prepro bike.
I know it's hard to believe that the Gixxer is going to be dethrowned this year. The numbers I've seen for it are far above what I see in the real world too, but no one says anything about creditabilty on it.
Like EX said stop dynoiing bikes with less than break miles and then complaining for not getting the same numbers. Every company yes Suzuki tool supplied these magazines with bikes that were broken in directly as stated and they felt were the best bikes.
If you don't belive the results stop buying the magazines, let your desire, taste and skill decide the bike for you..........................
I saw in a magazine that Elvis was working at Steak and Shake, anyone want to go see him!
____________
Move over and let the fatman in!
posted April 26, 2004 07:30 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 26 Apr 2004 08:40
Kawasaki should offer customer around 160 hp or we are entitled to an explanation. no ;...I am not losing sleep over it and ZX-10R has plenty of seat of the pants real world hp. Am Getting a scotts damper just to control beast ;with lightweight bike 150hp is excellent. It is just that we may have been decieved by magazines or Kawasaki or who?
Thats the unacceptable part.
I guess we all have to determine for ourselves whats happening here. Results are certainly not consistent and gives place to half truths which people do not like. I like to know the whole truth myself; and have what I think I payed good money for. Just my thoughts regardless. I will enjoy ZX-10R regardless as well thats not the issue to me anywho. I believe this issue is far from being laid to rest.
Just read post from "Ivan" (thanks it helps) informing a superflow dyno yields 7% higher results; maybe then the solution to all this dyno disparity is to make sure you have your ZX-10R dynoed by a Superflow hehehe.....
"You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".
posted April 26, 2004 08:17 AM
Hitman, yep your right about the MSO, it says 175 at crank. This would normally lead to RWHP of around 150 give or take a few either way. The Kawi in some mags is getting 164HP at the wheel. It's just inconsistent with what normal losses would be. I don't know, at the end of the day who gives a s***.... don't even know why I'm writing this.
posted April 26, 2004 09:07 AM
Who cares about all those HP numbers blablabla yawn. Kawa is the only one making a green bike, it is therefore better than all others
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posted April 25, 2004 02:53 AM
(even if my next Kawasaki turns out to be black in color 
and intend to ride tthe wheels of it 
Edited By: 
posted April 26, 2004 08:17 AM
