posted April 23, 2004 08:09 PM
Well, my gixxer feels a lot stronger (midrange power is light years ahead of the ZX), sticks a lot better and is a lot more stable at the balance point. I have 2 years of development and about $8k in it though. I think with a real shock and the missing 20 bhp my ZX will be just as much fun. For one thing the forks and brakes are at least twice as good as the OE gixxer crap, and the even with the nearly rigid compression circuit in the rear shock it can still put a lot more power to the ground on corner exits than a stock gixxer. What stuns me is that everyone is going to look the other way and gloat about winning the shootouts in the mags. I think the results might have been different if they used a real ZX10R and not one of the special ones. Nobody has been within 10 HP of the SR mule, and that is just wrong. Gixxer boy this
posted April 23, 2004 08:39 PM
I was well within 10 hp, as was Muzzy. Lot's of different bikes in that hp area have been tested. But whatever. All the new brands run great and it will be up to the riders to probably make most of the difference. Enjoy. Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.
posted April 23, 2004 08:43 PM
You know, you can be having a bad day at work and then you read something or someone like pal-o and you can grin again. At least until I get off and ride the 10r.
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
quote:I was well within 10 hp, as was Muzzy. Lot's of different bikes in that hp area have been tested. But whatever. All the new brands run great and it will be up to the riders to probably make most of the difference. Enjoy. Sounds like you have the best of both worlds.
Really? I don't recall seeing that. Muzzy has a 165/83 on theirs. I'm sure it came from the showroom like that. (Must...control...sarcasm...) Sorry to flog this, I just can't see why everyone has the blinders on. Most bikes are a solid 12 to 15 bhp under the mag bikes, and nobody cares. Oh well, at least they don't grenade like the R1.
posted April 24, 2004 12:28 AM
A friend and I had a street "dyno run" last night. He has a '03 Gixxer thou and I have a ZX10. His has a full Yoshi exhaust, remap, K & N air filter and a fresh tune up. Mine is stock and a fresh tune up, as well (well, it is 2000 miles from new). I can report that the bikes were never more than a couple of feet in front or behind the other. Pretty much a dead heat. I know this is fairly unscientific but it shows me that all of the modern liter bikes are great bikes.
Gixxer boy, I have ridden both bikes fairly aggresively on a select back country road and I can assure you that the ZX10 hooks up MUCH better off of the turns than that GSXR1000. Both bikes have stock shocks and the same tires. No comparison.
posted April 24, 2004 12:36 AM
Truth is that the GSXR1000, R1, CBR1000 & ZX10r are all great bikes.
____________
Dan
04 ZX10r (Track only)
08 Concours14
quote:...Gixxer boy, I have ridden both bikes fairly aggresively on a select back country road and I can assure you that the ZX10 hooks up MUCH better off of the turns than that GSXR1000. Both bikes have stock shocks and the same tires. No comparison.
I noticed that as well. It took some radical geometry manipulation to get the Gix to hook up. Once you make those changes it is a different animal. The ZX was great right out of the box. As good stock (on corner exit thrust) as my thoroughly tweaked gixxer. Nice.
Needs a life
Full throttle!
Posts: One MEEEEEELLION
posted April 24, 2004 07:46 AM
My friend's 1K is what got me looking at 'light' bikes. Going from a 12R that had been completely sorted to a stock 1K, I realized that no matter how many $$$ I put into it, there was no way I was going to get in the same ballpark as a bike that weighs 100lbs less. So I decided stand on one side or the other of the fence, rather than trying to straddle it. Now I've got the ZZR1200 for the long trips, and the ZX10R for the fun stuff. I tossed around the other bikes, like the R1and the CBR, but came back to Kawasaki when it came time to put the money down. And horsepower doesn't win comparos, performance does.
____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted April 24, 2004 12:48 PM
palo's point that the mags show 160 plus hp and that real world is high 140s hp is a good and valid point...i love my 10r and am very happy with it (i don't miss any part of my G1K)...but i also bought it with the expectation that the hp would be close to what is reported in the mags...is that unreasonable? once break in is over, i'll head to the dyno and find out what my 10r will do. as far as i am concerned, kawasaki's credibility hinges on the results.
posted April 24, 2004 12:55 PM
From a corporate point of view, KHI must realize that their credibility will be permanently damaged if it turns out that bikes supplied to the mags were ringers. The downside of doing that and getting caught far outweighs the benefit of being the dyno king in a magazine test.
posted April 24, 2004 01:10 PM
i agree 100%. i don't believe the ringer BS, and i am confident that my bike will perform well at the dyno. seeing others consistently getting 140s is making me start to wonder though.
i thought i saw a post where extremelean suggested that the valves and throttle bodies should be checked to maximize hp...is anyone doing this? what's involved? i really don't trust my dealer to do that kind of work...
posted April 24, 2004 06:11 PM
A well tuned machine will give you a higher HP reading depending on production tolerances and how well the bike was broke in....all these people that are throwing their bikes on the Dyno with 200,300,400,500 miles are NOT doing their machine any good.
Then there are tons of variances in Dynos and Dyno types.
Didnt I just see someone post that they Dynoed their bike at 158 HP stock ??
Another thing to think about.....did the magazines that dynoed all the bikes need or have to make corrections.....I am not a dyno master....soo correct me if I am wrong.
Maybe Kbryant could chime in here.
posted April 24, 2004 06:18 PM
You are indeed correct, on all accounts.
Guys, I don't know how many different ways it can be stated, myself, Muzzy, and a variety of magazines all have bikes in excess 160hp. That's a lot of different bikes! All bikes were carefully broken in, valves adjusted, throttle bodies sync'd. Relax, break your bike in properly by the book. Do the first serious service, then go back to the dyno and run to your hearts content until someone comes up with numbers to make you happy.
posted April 24, 2004 07:24 PM
Two things I'm wondering. A) Do the magazines do a thorough break-in. and B) why don't the magazines get an "off the shelf" bike to test ala Consumer Reports. I guess with magazine lead times and the desire to be first causes taking whatever the manufacturers give them?
____________
If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
posted April 24, 2004 07:54 PM
If I remember correctly, the bikes being referenced where preproduction, and Muzzy did say he wanted to run a 'real' 10.
Now either Kawasaki 'tuned' their supplied bikes with unbeleivable precision, or standard ZX10s leave in a very poor state of tune (relatively of course) or go out of tune by a huge amount as soon as the odo clicks over to 1 mile.
Dont get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the manufacturers who come here to share their info, but I fear they may not be appreciating the point some are making.
Sure very out of spec valve clearances robbing valuable lift can have an effect, but having gone thru the excercise of synching on a dyno after a valve adjustment, I find it nearly impossible to beleive a delta of 15HP. On my crusty old 1100 it was good for about 3HP. The thing I have noted as the biggest variance is cam timing as much as 8 HP on my 1000.
Now the funny thing here is that the guy being given a hard time is a ZX10 guy. But because he can appreciate another motorcycle he is being called a gixxer boy.
All for the sake of having a bike that your ego wants to feel good about being labeled the king of all comers.
Sorry boys, not this year. Only the CBR900RR, the original R1, and GSXR1000 can lay claim to be the undisputed open class kings of their repective era's.
But it does not detract from it in anyway, it is still one of the most impressive machines one can buy.
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
posted April 24, 2004 09:39 PM
if hp numbers are consistantly lower than advertised, this will have elements of Ford's fiasco with its SVT Cobra R of a couple of years ago
____________ “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
posted April 24, 2004 09:45 PM
Erich, I have to disagree. First I don't think Kawasaki is running ringers in for Cycle World, SportRider and Motorcyclist magazines. I have proven to myself that MY ZX10 will run head to head with a '03 Gixxer 1K that has been modified with a full Yosh system, remap and K & N filter. I think that would indicate that stock vs. stock there is a new king, at least. I haven't run against a stock '04 R1, so I have nothing to determine if the new king is the ZX10 or the R1. But it should be obvious that there is a new king. I think if you want to look for a ringer, I think you should suspect Honda not Kawasaki. SportRider commented on the huge difference in performance between the pre-production CBR1000RR they previewed and the production bike they used for their test. Of course, the bike they have now could just be a poor example of the brand. But am I the only one who noticed how much slower the "production based" CBR1000RR superbikes seem to be when compared to the handbuilt pre-production superbikes that were used for early testing at Daytona?
Erich, I think the large differences that you read about in dyno results is probably not a result of a "ringer" but the differences in dynos and their operators. Obviously, like everyone else, I like seeing those big numbers. But all dynos do not deliver the same numbers on the same bike. The only valid comparison is all of the bikes on the same dyno on the same day, etc. It is not valid to say that some dyno in Germany got 150 hp on a ZX10 and the SportRider dyno got 164 hp, so the bike SportRider tested must be a ringer. C'mon Erich, you are smarter than that.
posted April 24, 2004 11:55 PM
Hey zeta. You know, I never actually said ringer.
Really I was answering the to the idea of synching your TB's and adjusting your valves will get you large HP increase, as that is the rationale being offered for lower readings. And what I have seen on 2 of my bikes playing with them on tune related things. Only a real mechanical problem will cover the spreads in question, and it is highly unlikely for all the runs we have seen that everyones bikes are that messed up. I, nor do any of these folks have an explanation for that.
Now if one puts away their Kawasaki hat, ask yourself why is it if dyno error or variation is the reason, that almost all the independant runs are seeing numbers within 3 to 5 HP or one another. What happend to all the variation that worked against 160+. Conspiracy maybe?
There is a definate trend emerging, but its like anything. We can be selective in choosing our evidence to meet our assumption and support it no matter what someones preference.
Can you imagine the glee in CBR land at the last cycle news. Declaring the CBR winner. Worse, the R1 was higher than the ZX. Crazy I know!!
Dont take this wrong, I am not trying to say anything negative about the machine or that its not at the pointy end of the performance spectrum. just there has been enough to show that this whole 'king' thing is subjective this year, where as prior years it was more clear cut.
Honestly the problem lies in this whole process around the need to declare a king, or even own a king.
posted April 25, 2004 02:09 AM
If the definition of enthusiast is to only to have the a bike that will win every magazine test, then I guess not. At least that is whay you appear to be inferring.
I came from a background where enthusiasts like all motorcycles and appreciate them. Where it about the sport and technology. Not stickers on the tank.
So if I get you right, only a ZX10 owner is an enthusiast now? Or something else?
FWIW, I joined this board as I wanted info on the 10. I stayed as there seemed to be less brand loyalty and mindless this is best or that is best based only on the brand as you tend to get with other boards. Also there is a higher maturity level. It impressed me that Muzzy et al post here.
I never said anything derogatory that I was aware of. Rather pointed out some other observations or findings. However, if you are saying that membership requires uncounditional support of positive claims for the given model while leaving out any other objective facts or experiences that do not support them, then let me know.
I'm still new here, so if saying all bikes are equally good is offensive or against policy, I apologize.
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