MO
Expert Class
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posted December 25, 2001 06:12 AM
1270=1290=1320
I think for the money the 1270 muzzy kit is the way to go but would like a few more opinions.
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RAC4IT
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Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 27, 2001 08:53 AM
$-to-HP ratio
For the $:hp ratio then yes I would have to agree the 1270 is the best value.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted December 27, 2001 09:58 AM
be careful to compare fully. If you are primarily interested in flat ut top speed then PEAK hp is the right comparison.
If you want rollon power, you have to compare hp at 3,000, 4000, 5000, 6000, etc.
if you want both get a 1361 
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MO
Expert Class
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posted December 27, 2001 11:03 AM
that would be great, but I want to watch the cranks a bit longer. maybe some one will forge there own stroker cranks. I'm still leary of welded cranks
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jessz1
Expert Class
Half the wheels, twice the fun
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posted December 27, 2001 11:07 AM
I wouldn't be scared of a welded crank but a few guys have had problems with crank failures. Be it the crank or the assembly, I'm with you, I'll wait awhile longer.
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 28, 2001 11:24 AM
I think .......
1270 for the following reasons -
~$
~Safe
~everyday ride as well
~Longevity
~reliability
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entropy
Moderator
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posted December 28, 2001 07:06 PM
1361 reliability??
I may eat these words, but ,,,
Even after the stroking of the ZX12 (Muzzy kit), it still has less stroke that a busa (but 12 has wider bore). I can't figure out what has people so spooked about 1361.
Again, I may eat these words, but I REALLY like the rollon power of the stroker, and would love to roll against a 1270...
Angi,
Do not make up your mind yet.
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 28, 2001 09:19 PM
entropy....Ok, I have a question!!!
I am comfortable in saying that a 1270 will hardly effect everyday riding.....This is proven from many other ZX12R's.
Can you say that for the 1361 kit????
Does your bike run hotter than normal???
Have you had any issues with everyday riding vs. when it was stock bore????
Well, that was a couple questions.. 
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bbwatercool
Novice Class
Posts: 64
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posted December 28, 2001 09:40 PM
 Edited By: bbwatercool on 30 Dec 2001 13:38
big bore 1270/1290
the zx 12 is a very good engine to build if you decided to do it...the closer you stay to stock the more reliable it is going to be...that's where the trade offs come in...if you want more power then you have to do things that will result in a power increase...power adders usually lower the dependability...we at cycle concepts can offer any of you an engine package which includes big bore pistons, stock cams(muzzy cams available with addtional cost), adjustable cam sprockets, ported head, competition valve job, stainless intake and exhaust valves, and springs and retainers all for $3450.00 out the door ready to ride...please feel free to contact us if there are any questions or concerns...this is now the time to build...don't wait until it starts to warm up because every machine shop in the U.S. will be busy and you will never get your stuff back on time...
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2001 02:37 AM
Angi,
my 1361 does NOT run any hotter than stock, but I have water wetter or some such stuff in it.
Around town, putting from stop light to stoplight, you can't tell the difference too much from stock, its when you screw it on, even a little that the bike jumps out and flys.
Strong hp at 3,000 makes it really fun, but all the talk about 1361's (and 1270's, and big motor Busas) being too much hp for the street is just BS, pure bullshit. Adding 15-20% hp is great, but some folks would have you believe that their new motor is shaking the earth...
The only downside is if you get the engine hot, like being stuck in serious traffic on a hot day, you don't want to shut it off, cause it turns over very hard when very hot. This only happened a couple times but I am looking for a bigger battery solution.
One advantage of the 1270 is that since you keep the stock crank, it will be easier to go to the turbo you will be getting in 2003 
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 29, 2001 11:07 AM
Thanks entropy...That is exactly what I was wondering.
We go to Detroit, Miami and Chicago every year and for the last two summers both bikes (Busa and ZX12R) ran hot. We had to pull off the road and let them cool down(traffic)...and this was stock. I do not want to add anything that will mess up the everyday riding as well.
I like Drag Racing and Power but I bought the ZX12R to Ride!!!
Maybe I just need to get another one that can be my Drag Bike!!! ok...I am awake now!!!
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 29, 2001 11:08 AM
quote:
One advantage of the 1270 is that since you keep the stock crank, it will be easier to go to the turbo you will be getting in 2003
OOOOHHHHHH!!! YYYEEEAAAHHHHH!!!!
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2001 02:25 PM
quote:
...
Maybe I just need to get another one that can be my Drag Bike!!! ok...I am awake now!!!
hey, the solution is right in front of you: turn your ZZ-guy's bike into a pure dragster, then use your 12 for the road. ZZ-guy can pillion!
PS: use some of that water wetter stuff, it really works.
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hondo
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted December 29, 2001 11:59 PM
I'm starting to wonder how many of the 12's with braring/crank failure are using synthetic oil?
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hondo
Expert Class
Posts: 140
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posted December 30, 2001 12:01 AM
I'm starting to wonder how many of the 12's with bearing/crank failures were using synthetic oil?
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted December 30, 2001 07:42 AM
muzzy (falicon) stroker cranks
zx-12 girl i would stick with the 1270 kit for all around use. i have had two falicon stroker cranks ( a honda cbx 5mm stroker and a zx-11 3mm stroker ) both engines were proffesionally built and both failed the same way. the cranks failed (broke) cleanly at the rod journal with no bearing failure. i have several friends with honda-xx strokers (one 3mm the other 5mm) that have high street milage and have not had any problems. i think it depends on how much margin was built into the stock crank. the cbx and the zx-11 cranks had thin cheeks around the rod journal while the xx crank looks overbuilt with plenty of material around the journal to work with. have you added a manual switch to run you're radiator fan in traffic i had the same problem with heat but solved it with water-wetter and a manual fan switch.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 30, 2001 12:15 PM
Thanks John
That's what I was thinking. I am looking for more power but I want to be able to ride it everyday as well.
I do plan to try the water wetter next spring.
I have a question about the manual fan switch - does this just over ride the automic on/off just when needed or do you have to always turn the fan on and off after you install the switch???
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johns
Expert Class
Posts: 205
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posted December 30, 2001 06:45 PM
manual fan switch
the manual switch is wired in parallel with the radiator fan thermostat on the left side of the radiator in the back. easy as pie to wire. the switch turns the fan on and overrides the temperature switch. when the manual switch is turned on the fan runs all the time, when it is off the radiator fan cycles normally off the fan thermostat. i find that if i turn the fan on in stop and go traffic before the engine temp. starts to rise it never gets above the center of the scale on the digital meter. i failed to mention that i also installed a muzzy aluminum fan which moves a lot more air than the stock fan. i mounted the switch on the left inner cover close to the fan thermostat and used electric quick connects so that the switch can be easily disconnected when the inner cover is removed. i have installed theses switches on all my bikes with the same positive results. hope this helps.
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2006 ZX-14 (sold)
2012 ZX-14R (Brock's Perf. project bike Louisville Slugger)
2013 Honda VFR1200F
2003 124 C.I. H.D. Super glide
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ZX12Girl
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posted December 30, 2001 07:00 PM
Awesome info!!! Thanks a million john!!!
That's exactly what I wanted to know!! Gotta have one!!
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted December 31, 2001 02:48 PM
quote:
Even after the stroking of the ZX12 (Muzzy kit), it still has less stroke that a busa (but 12 has wider bore). I can't figure out what has people so spooked about 1361.
It's not the stroke people are concerned about it is the fact that the stroker crankshafts on the market today are re-welded factory cranks (they have been cut and welded to give the additional stroke). It is the reliability and quality of the welds that causes concern. Hopefully soon there will be an aftermarket one-piece billet stroker crankshaft for the ZX12R and less to worry about.
That being said- I bought the 1361 welded crank.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted January 02, 2002 01:54 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 2 Jan 2002 14:05
Time for a little elementary education. The heat that is produced by the combustion process and subsequently dissapated by the cooling system is the result of two things. The internal friction within the engine and primarily the burning of the fuel. The more power you produce the more fuel you need burn. In other words, horsepower=heat. Remember that. If you are not creating the power you are not creating the heat. You may have an engine capable of creating 250 hp at peak, but when you are driving down the freeway at 70 you are only using maybe 30 hp. When you are idling through traffic maybe 5. The cooling system on your stock 12 is designed to deal with about 200 hp sustained on a std. day. Increasing the bore and or stroke and thus the PEAK power capability means nothing unless the engine is being operated AT PEAK. Now, you may be creating more power everywhere but these power levels are always less than the design capability of the cooling system. I've never seen a radiator that is even marginally too small. The single most important factor in any modern liquid cooled cooling system is AIR FLOW. And it's not as you might imagine getting the air into the radiator. It is getting it out the back. Move the air and you'll cool the engine. it's that simple. Granted, if that air is hot or very hot, the task is harder but that's the key. It has NOTHING to do with bore/stroke/compression.
(which brings up another fallicy I hear knocked about; high compression usually yields a lower running temp, not higher).
Regarding the strength of welded strokers, the strength is directly proportional to the length of stroke increase. Not because of the process, which is proven and reliable, but because you are changing one dimension of the crank without changing it's basic design. As you move the rod crankpin away from the main pin centerline, you are decreasing the amount of material that remains between the two crankpins. This is called overlap. If a crank is made fresh (i.e., from new billet) the thickness of the area of overlap is "designed in" regardless of the desired stroke. When you do a welded stroker (assuming the crankpin diameters remain unchanged) the overlap gets less the farther out you move the rod pin and a weak point develops. A specific example is in ZX-11s;3mm strokers will live about as long as a stocker, a 5 can break in an hour of use. Obviously, we feel, and experience has shown, that the safe limit for a reliable ZX-12 welded crank is 4mm. You can go further, but at some point it WILL break.
The whole topic of whether a 1361 is suitable for the street is really a red herring. A 1361 is fine for the street except that without an extended swing arm you really can't do anything with the extra low and midrange power and the average rider will simply go faster easier with the 1270. It is more manageable and usable. Now, everybody likes to lay down big blackies and I think entropy will attest the 1361 really does a nice job of that. If that's what you want to buy then please, enjoy. If you are going to put on an arm and tire and shifter etc., and want to run 8's then the 1361 is for you. If you are a Sunday Morning Rider and just want the fastest bike in the bunch, get the 1270 and some new tires.
We have just recieved the first of new billet crankshfts for the 12 with strokes up to plus 7 mm. (This would be, with our billet dry block 1426 ccs. Can you say pro-stock?) We are inspecting them now. They will be availble soon and the price is $3695. Anything over the 4 plus will require an external starter as there is no room for the starter gear.
Doug
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MO
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted January 02, 2002 02:59 PM
now were talkin, I'm sure theres not much chance of breaking one of them,time to save my pennies
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KW
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted January 02, 2002 07:26 PM
Billet Steel
Doug,
Are any of the new Billet steel cranks available in 4mm design (1361) or are they only for the larger stroke engines?
Thanks for the useful information in that post above. Good post!
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BA
Pro
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posted January 02, 2002 08:08 PM
nice post Doug. very informative.
just give me a ring if you need someone to field test or promote that new block and crank for ya.
Allan
'BA'
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ZX12Girl
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posted January 03, 2002 04:31 AM
Edited By: ZX12Girl on 3 Jan 2002 04:31
Now that's what I am talking about!!!!
Doug...That was a very useful post and we are all glad that you come over here to assist us!!!! Awesome detail....even I understood everything
I see so many supplier/sales pitches thrown out to us and I would have to say that you always do it in an awesome fashion.....These other suppliers should take notes...
I guess that is why Muzzy is on top of the market!!! As well you should be!!!Customer Service is top notch in my opinion!!!!!
Just wanted to say Thanks....and Don't stop!!!!
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