entropy
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posted October 26, 2003 03:05 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 26 Oct 2003 03:15
O ring the block???
I have a ZX12 with 1427, 220psi cranking pressure, Nutec.
Runs my 765# FatAss 8.907@155.6 on motor
In prepping for the Texas mile, I did a couple of back to back "lite" street passes (190 on GPS) that seemed flawless. Afterwards I noticed a few bubbles in the overflow tank. hmmmmmmm..... headgasket????
Ran the mile yesterday and mph was less than expected (194); then on 4th pass it went to 189 and the overflow was bubbling like a hookah. headgasket!!!
The bubbling was "cured" once before by skimming the block and a new Cometic Copper, but I wanna cure it once and for all.
Cheeseman will tear it down, and assure the block and head are true (or have someone fix em), but I am wondering if O-ringing the block is an option???
BTW: inspite of a STRONG quartering headwind, Cheese's turbo Busa did the job at 210mph! Fuggin' wind made the big end REAL interesting!!!
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Ra12r
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posted October 26, 2003 06:36 AM
If headgasket, then you should not be able to stop the bubbling during normal riding conditions. That billet just allows more heat transfer I believe and a mile at 11,000 rpms will make the water in your radiator possibly steam some and produce bubble without a head gasket blown. besides if your headgasket is blown look for the "white smoke".
Second, I have my head "O-ringed", and that is something i believe you have to choose when you buy it. I don't know if they can do it after the fact?!?!
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entropy
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posted October 26, 2003 09:54 AM
Edited By: entropy on 26 Oct 2003 09:56
ra,
seems there are degrees of "bad head gasket".
Yesterday, BADZXELEVEN's Busa was bubbling pretty strong and after 3? passes on the mile, he was outa coolant in the overflow. His assessment? headgasket.
Mine was barely bubbling at all, even after the 1st pass. But after the 4th pass it was bubbling pretty hard. No white smoke to be seen, but you could smell coolant in the exhaust.
This bubbling thing happened to me last summer and was traced to the block having a slight dip in it apparently caused by not being skimmed after a bit of welding/cleanup boring/re-Nikasil-ing. It would only bubble when temp guage was at 9pm or higher. Sent the block back to Millennium for (free) skimming and the bubbling stopped; bike was running fabulous (8.80's@155 till yesterday.
After my experience last summer, I am pretty sure that I have combustion gas getting into the cooling system, and am beginning to suspect that Water Wetter may be part of the problem. The head's coming off soon and will check head & block for true, but suspect I will get it O-ringed in any case.
It seems that some folks ring the head, whereas others (car guys?) ring the block.
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kzz1
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posted October 26, 2003 10:03 AM
Edited By: kzz1 on 26 Oct 2003 10:06
Did you use the Cometic HP head gasket when the motor was apart the last time? Copper head gaskets don't seal as well as the regular cometic gasket. Might want to look into the Cometic HP- high compression. I use the Cometic HP gasket on the Busa same compession with no problems.
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entropy
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posted October 26, 2003 12:03 PM
quote:
... Might want to look into the Cometic HP- high compression. I use the Cometic HP gasket on the Busa same compession with no problems.
good idea Kz, i've not heard of that gasket. I'll call Cometic tomorrow and ask.
Thanks for the tip!
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ra12r
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posted October 26, 2003 04:53 PM
Entropy just make sure that it is truly a bad head gasket as you SHOULD see some white smoke. My block came "o-ringed" as a cheap option. So not knowing if i would ever spray I went for it. Nothing wrong with the OEM headgaskets...I am still running the full compression of the kit with no probs......well except all my other problems,,,hahahahahaha
Secondly, if it is a head gasket it will bubble very quickly after starting and ideling.
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posted October 26, 2003 08:17 PM
Dean cured his headgasket problems by having his block oringed (and switching to a copper gasket I believe).
Im sure he can give more info on it.
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spencercyclecom
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posted October 26, 2003 08:45 PM
Entropy just make sure that it is truly a bad head gasket as you SHOULD see some white smoke
Not all the time.......
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ninja12
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posted October 27, 2003 12:13 AM
do a leak-down
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entropy
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posted October 27, 2003 12:17 AM
thx guys, i'm very sure something is not right (especially since this isn't the 1st time), and will prolly have it ringed.
Any ideas where is the best place to send the head/block to get it ringed????
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TurboBlew
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posted October 27, 2003 03:22 AM
The thing with copper gaskets is to use a high copper adhesive, like on big diesel trucks. You may have to heat cycle the engine a few times to get the final headbolt torque perfect.
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entropy
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posted October 27, 2003 04:12 AM
TB,
I just read some car forum info (Jeeves search), which advise O-ringing, but advise against using copper headgaskets with them They were pretty set on using stock gaskets with the oringed block.
hmmmmm.... I am getting more & more confused.
BTW: where do you get "high copper adhesive"?????
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zrxdean
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posted October 27, 2003 08:18 AM
It's kinda strange it's blowing on just motor, unless one of the surfaces isn't flat, your compression ratio is not that high. Mine starting blowing when I sprayed it, and I think most of that problem was the SBM block. A nikasil block should be more resistant. When mine used to blow, I would see water in the oil, and the leakdown would pressurize the cooling system - I could open the radiator and see bubbles in the blown cylinder.
The conventional wisdom is to run an annealed copper head gasket with orings, and a sealer of some kind, either spray copper coat or whatever you like. I was told to use 4 or 5 different types.
Before sending your block off, I would make sure both surfaces are flat and very smooth, and try using a Cometic HP gasket, assembled as carefully as you can. Put it through a heat cycle and retorque. If that blows, then spend the time and money to get it oringed, and commit to copper gaskets and sealer for the life of the block.
I don't know if the Muzzy/Adams shootout bike has been oringed, you might want to talk to Doug Meyer and see what he thinks. I know their ZRX had an oringed block, with a receiver groove in the head and copper head gasket.
I know your bike makes lots of power, but there's lots of folks out there spraying big that have no trouble, so I don't know why your motor would be so susceptible unless something is wrong.
Congrats on the 8.90, that's flying brother 
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entropy
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posted October 27, 2003 10:12 AM
hey Dean,
thx for weighing in on this. I don't know why its blowing although one guy claims that Water Wetter makes motors susecptable to leaky head gaskets.
The cost of having it O-ringed isn't much if you just cut a groove (and not the receiver), and I will be adding juice in a few mo, so I am leaning strongly towards getting it done.
I will have the head and the block checked for flat/smoothness before sending em off.
Q: some car guys say DON'T use copper, rather use the OEM gasket. Any comments?
Q: one person says send it to Millennium for ringing. any add'l comments to what you say above??
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ninjamissile
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posted October 27, 2003 11:32 AM
ok guys, dont flame me over this but what is meant by o-ringing a block
NM
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Lorcan
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posted October 27, 2003 01:06 PM
I'm surprised o-ringing works with an aluminium block and no liners. NM....the "old" way is to use a stainless steel ring in a groove machined in the top of the (steel) cylinder liners. This bites into a copper gasket, and provides a vertical seal as opposed to the horizontal clamping seal of a normal gasket. The 12 doesn't have liners of course.
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zrxdean
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posted October 27, 2003 03:11 PM
Karl, SB Mike actually recommends a spring steel head gasket with his .020 SS rings, but I had better luck (it held for more than one pass...) with copper, and every tuner I talked to thought using OEM gaskets with orings was nuts. I'd go with copper. I have no experience with nikasil blocks, but I've heard nothing but good things about Millenium.
NM- Here's the stainless orings SBM installed on my old block. I eventually replaced these with .032 copper rings. Then added .032 rings on the head too. Nothing helped.
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entropy
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posted October 28, 2003 12:39 AM
nice pic, Dean! I talked with Millennium they directed me to Star. The guy at Star was very, very helpful but basically directed me to Doug Meyer, so I sent an email to Doug (who was obviously on my list to contact in any event).
Like your experience, this ringing-thing is more complicated than I had thought... The guy at Star said that a potebtial solution is to EDM an OEM gasket to fit the billet block. He was concerned with the billet block having enough thickness between the cylinders to be able to ring it. With Star's equipment he needs .100".
Oh well, the search for knowledge goes on.
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ninjamissile
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posted October 28, 2003 03:57 AM
Thanks Dean,
Great pic. A good photo shows so much than words can explain!
NM
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ra12r
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posted October 28, 2003 09:19 AM
Mine is "O-ringed" from SBM. Same basic block as muzzys so it is possible. I haven't had any issues and also use the OEM headgaskets.
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entropy
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posted October 28, 2003 09:30 AM
ra12r,
you use stock (83mm) bore headgaskets for your 87mm block???? Or do you know where to get 87mm "OEM" gaskets
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