wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 16, 2003 08:11 PM
I need help troubleshooting my airshifter
OK, so I finally installed my air shifter. I'm running my NLR 2-step as my engine kill, and I'm running an electric over air setup. I routed everything so that it would work off my horn button.
The solenoid is actuating the cylinder ok. But, I'm not all that sure that the engine kill is working right. I tried shifting while on full throttle, and it didn't work. So, I tried maxing out the engine kill time. (150 ms or so.) It still didn't work.
I filled the bottle to 120psi, and the distance of the line from the solenoid to the actuator is only around 8", so 150 ms should be more than enough to make it work.
Is it possible to have too much engine kill? I know that you can have not enough, but can you have too much?
My buddy thinks that it's possible that I need a better ground going into my 2-step to get it to activate. I know someone here is running the NLR setup. Does it really need a really good ground?
Basically, I don't have a clue why it doesn't work. Any ideas?
  
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MadMike
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posted September 17, 2003 04:25 AM
couple of things to try, first off run your bike at idle and then have no Air in your shifter!!!(Important). and push the button, is your kill actually working? and second, I had to have my air about 130-140 to be able to make my 1-2 shift....and finally unhook your shifterand see if the solenoide actually moves and far enough up to shift...
Mad Mike
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Cowboy
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Posts: 1061
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posted September 17, 2003 11:57 AM
What Mike said.Run the bike at idle and hit your horn button with the air line to your ram dissconnected for safety.You should here your engine kill.It should stall the bike if you have it set on max.I have my kill set at about 65 ms and my distance between the ram and solenoid is about 18inches.cO2 SYSTEM REGUATED TO 140PSI
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 17, 2003 04:27 PM
my advice is get rid of it, airshifters are unreliable and lose races 
Unless you're going better than 8.70s it's not needed
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DR JOE
Expert Class
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posted September 17, 2003 06:19 PM
Wannabe
I run 140 psi in my air shifter and it made all the difference in the world and have my engine kill is about 75ms.
In case your wondering... Muzzy airshift kit runs at 160 psi...
DR JOE
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 17, 2003 09:12 PM
quote:
my advice is get rid of it, airshifters are unreliable and lose races
Unless you're going better than 8.70s it's not needed
Damn Right! Get a Dale Walker electric! 
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MadMike
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posted September 17, 2003 09:37 PM
 Edited By: MadMike on 17 Sep 2003 22:49
quote:
my advice is get rid of it, airshifters are unreliable and lose races
Unless you're going better than 8.70s it's not needed
Well Alex I am going to have to call the Bullshit Bluff!! Unreliable, I dont think so!! I have had one 3 years at 40 races a year and an average of 10 passes a race, and the only time I have missed a shift was the 4-5 times in 1200 passes that I did not push the button in all the way. Airshifters are easier and more consistant! for bracket racing a shifter is the way to go.. I reccomend the air, but I also have friends that have the electric. More consistent = more wins! even though I know good racers who do not use them, With my experience they make you faster and more consistant!
Mad Mike
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 18, 2003 10:05 AM
Thanks for your advice guys!!! I'll try that this weekend. Do all of you guys have your ram mounted vertically pulling on the lever or horizontally pulling on the rod?
Do you have any issues with hoses popping out at 160psi, or should I set up some sort of braded line setup?
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 20, 2003 06:11 PM
OK, I tried hitting the buton with the bike at idle. The delay kiled the engine. It was actually pretty consistent. It worked just fine. I'm starting to think that 120 psi isn't enough pressure to get it to shift from 1st to 2nd. I'll go ahead and try 140 or 160psi when I get my N2 tank on Monday.
Wish me luck! I've got my fingers crossed that it's just a pressure issue.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 21, 2003 07:18 AM
Mike, I don't argue the point that more consistant = more wins but IMHO the airshifter is not more consistant because it's definitely not reliable. I'll trust my ability rather than the shifter any day. I have yet to see one work reliably, as in all the time. If I fuck up and lose, it's my fault no one to blame. But it I lose because of an airshifter, I would be pissed. It has happened to me in the past where I would have won races had I not reached for the button. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you're riding a bike that is so fast you can't make the 1-2 shift, that is a good reason to have one. Unfortuntely most of us are not going sub 8.70s on a regular basis.
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DR JOE
Expert Class
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posted September 21, 2003 10:14 AM
Wannabe
If you have a problem with the hose popping or you just don't trust your hose go to place that specializes in making hoses ( looking in the phone book under hose ) and take a piece with you. My hose popped twice and so I went there and bought some new line. It's rated at 600 psi and have not had a problem since. I would start at 140psi and work up from there 5 pounds at a pass till you have the 1-2 shift fixed.
Do you still street ride this bike or is it a full time race bike???
RAC4IT from the picture that you have under your name you do not run a wheelie bar. When I switched from my 6" over arm to a bar and slick and regeared it is hard for me to get my foot up there in time for the 1-2 shift. I raced my ZREX for 2 years with out a airshifter and one year on my ZX12 without one. But the bar make a world of difference on the 1-2 shift it comes up quick. And in case your wondering if I have ever lost a race because of the airshifter, Yes I have last month and now I do regular maintenance on it to make sure that it works free and quick.
Good luck...
DR JOE
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted September 21, 2003 11:38 AM
quote:
quote:
...I also have friends that have the electric. More consistent = more wins!...
Mad Mike
I consider myself one of Mike's friends that has an electric shifter. Dale Walker's PS3 = f-l-a-w-l-e-s-s shifting! The only time it'll miss a shift is when I fuk up and get into the limiter; no-no-no, it doesn't like shifting in the limiter.
BUT, if I go into the limiter the race is lost anyway.
Besides bullet proof shifts, it has saved my ole fat ass more times than I can count by shortshifting 1-2 when the front comes up.
Lots o' guys (like Bergie) are good without a button shifter, but I am sure NOT one of them.
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Cowboy
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Posts: 1061
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posted September 21, 2003 06:44 PM
Rac4it,I had issues with missing shifts ALSO but after mounting the ram vertically and having my tranny massaged by R&D i haven't missed a shift all year.
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 21, 2003 07:49 PM
Cowboy,
Any chance you can take a picture of you vertical mounting? I see that there is quite a bit more leverage mounting it vertically. I just need an idea how to do it. If I mount the air cylinder vertically, I think that I won't need 160 psi.
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted September 22, 2003 06:55 AM
You definately will not need 160psi.More like 120-140psi with it vertically mounted.
I don't have a pic right now but if you feal around above the chain on the inside of the frame there is about a 1 inch hole(only on the inside).I drilled and taped from the outide into that hole.Used a 2 inch bolt and put a nut on inside and outside of frame to lock it.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted September 22, 2003 02:47 PM
Whatever works best for each person is great, as long as there is a 12R out front!
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DR JOE
Expert Class
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posted September 22, 2003 07:46 PM
Wannabe
I made my own Muzzy copy and it works fine at 140psi. Like I said you will have to play with yours to find the sweet spot that it likes.
Someone now sell a Muzzy copy of the vertical mound system that is a exact copy. I'm just not sure who. I got an E-mail about it the other day.
Later
DR JOE
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted September 27, 2003 11:25 PM
Edited By: kcadby on 28 Sep 2003 00:26
RAC...
I have NEVER seen an air shifter on ANY bike...that was set-up and "operated right" (push the button like you MEAN IT)...that was ANYTHING but...RELIABLE...
Yes we DID have trouble with John's when I first installed it but the problem was obvious to me...not enough air pressure for the amount of leverage the cylinder has on the stock shifter linkage...
The "BIKE" has NEVER missed a shift since I raised the pressure...
JOHN missed second a few times while learning to ride but hasn't missed a shift in a LONG time and when he did...he KNEW it was his fault for not "pushing the button right"
His gauge "creeps" up to 160psi...
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wannabe
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Posts: 1931
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posted September 28, 2003 07:17 AM
OK, boys, I got back last night from a race in Sacrament. I didn't care how I did because I was treating it like a test & tune to try to get my airshifter dialed in. I went rounds, but I lost in the final with a 0.396 redlight. C;est la vie.
As for the air shifter, I nw know that the problem is with the engine kill. First of all, I took all the air out of the tank, and the engine kil works when the bike is in neutral. I can see the light on the NLR box come one, and I can hear the engine hesitate. But, when I'm on my run, the thing doesn't shift. I don't see the light come on on the NLR box, and the bike won't shift even when the box is set at max.
But, during one of the rounds, I used the throttle to get off like I was foot shifting, but I hit the button instead of foot shifting. It shifted nicely. I did it again the next round.
So, it looks like 've got some troubleshooting to do with my engine kill. I still don't know why it works in neutral but not at full throttle in gear. It's starting to sound more and more like a bad ground.
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted September 28, 2003 09:19 AM
I could be stepping into a large pile of doo-doo here, but, I have to point something out.
quote:
But, during one of the rounds, I used the throttle to get off like I was foot shifting, but I hit the button instead of foot shifting. It shifted nicely. I did it again the next round.
Although you didn't see the light on the NLR come on when making a pass, I just wanted to point out the obvious here.
You mentioned you were at 120psi, and I'm thinking that is still way to low.
My limited experience was that more than 140 is needed for the 12R.
Just keep in mind that by letting off the gas that little bit took off a BOATLOAD of the internal gear load that the air-shifter USUALLY has to work against. Thus, it darn well SHOULD have shifted into gear that way for you.
The 'no NLR light' thing is another deal that I don't have any experience with....
Good luck though man!
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 28, 2003 09:52 AM
Actually, BA. I forgot to mention that I went all the way up to 160 PSI, and I still couldn't get the dang thing to shift.
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted September 29, 2003 05:15 PM
sounds like your kill is not activating correctly at higher rpm's did you rev it up and hit your kill and see if it is doing anything?
and Bergie, Man do I agree with you if a 12 is out front who really care's. but I am not foot shifting it for sure! but if something is working good do it, and test and improve! that is what I say!
Mad Mike
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DR JOE
Expert Class
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posted September 29, 2003 06:39 PM
Wannbe
Try calling NLR it sounds like there may be something wrong with your box?? If not they should be able to help you in getting it fixed..
DR JOE
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 29, 2003 07:10 PM
Joe, are you running the NLR 2 step also?
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted September 30, 2003 06:02 PM
Edited By: wannabe on 30 Sep 2003 19:03
OK, so I got a reply from Seb from NLR. It seems that the issue is actually with the bike and not anything I did. I haven't gotten a chance to call him to confirm my understanding, but this is what I know so far. It seems that NLR is using the clutch interlock circuit for the engine kill. Yes, this is the same circuit as the kickstand switch, etc. This is the same circuit that kills your engine if you try to leave with the kickstand down.
Anyways, he says that he has found cases where this circuit had been wired backwards. The circuit is supposed to be normally closed. But, on some of the ZX-12's, the circuit is normally open. Based on the long-ass e-mail I sent him, he tells me that it's acting like I got one of the bikes with a normally open circuit. So, I need to install a relay to get it to work.
I'm still confused about how this could work. Hopefully, I can get a hold of Seb tomorrow and have him really explain it to me. But, at least I'm making some progress here.
Damn, my head hurts...
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