ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 08, 2001 06:16 PM
 Edited By: ZX12Girl on 8 Dec 2001 18:17
Any Turbo guy's out there????
What I would like to understand is......
#1 - how does adding a turbo effect everday riding???
#2 - How much of an E.T. gain and HP did you get by installing a turbo???
#3 - Does it effect the reliability of the motor????
#4 - Turbo or NOS???? What is your thoughts????
Also does anyone know - What would be the differences between a 1270 kit or a Turbo???? Ha Ha...or both??? 
  
|
toprat
Novice Class
Posts: 38
|
posted December 08, 2001 10:04 PM
91 zx-11 turbo
1. Just cruising around its about the same as a NA bike, mine starts making positive boost around 5-5500.
2. I was running 10.50's before (stock wheelbase and only 120 at the wheel) I added 8" to the arm and left the motor stock ran 9.24@153 with no 3rd gear and only second time at the track with the turbo. Made 194.9 at the wheel with only 6psi of boost.
3. It all depends on how hard you want to push it.
4. TURBO is the only way to fly. a lot more predictable, never have to change jets or fill bottles. Horsepower is just a turn of the screw away.
____________
1991 ZX-11 Turbo
Too much is never Enough
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 08, 2001 11:48 PM
Edited By: KawRider on 8 Dec 2001 23:52
Turbo 12R
My favorite subject, Turbo-charged motorcycles! 
I have an 85 Kaw 750 turbo. It is heavily modified, and this is one subject I know quite a bit about. There is only one problem when turbo-charging a non-turbo bike like a ZX-12R. The ZX-12 has high compression pistons (even more so with a 1270 kit). Hi-Comp pistons and turbo-charging don't go well together, because it leads to excessive heat, detonation, and melted rings/pistons. There are 2 cures for this: Higher Octane (Like race gas) or lower compression. That is why most of the bolt on turbo kits do one of 2 things, or both. They provide a MUCH thicker base or head gasket, to lower the compression (not too good for low end response, but usually not too much of a differance from stock), or limit their turbo-charger to low boost settings (like the fella on the ZX11 has) 6PSI boost is a VERY VERY low boost setting for a turbo bike, but still enough to add 35-50 HP to a big bike. In my Humble (yet turbo-educated) opinion, the ultimate street/drag turbo ZX12R would be set up like this:
1. Have Wiseco (Or JE or someone) make a set of 1270cc ZX12R pistons in a much lower compression ratio, say 9.5:1 or so (this number is a guess, a real turbo expert like Mike Chestnut would be able to help figure out the optimim ratio).
2. With this lower compresion ratio, you could easily run 1.0 bar (14PSI) boost on pump gas.
3. The increased displacement would help make up for the lost compression at lower RPM.
4. The turbo you install should have a 2-stage adjustable wastegate (the wastegate is the device that limits the boost). Stage one would be stock (14PSI) boost. This would be in the neighborhood of 200 rear wheel HP. Stage 2 would be for track day, on racing gas. You wouldn't need this until 3rd gear, when you could control another 40 horsepower or so. This could be button (or computer) actuated. Im not sure that you wouldn't almost loop even in 3rdgear though.
5. To do it all properly, all you would need is money, and I'd reccomend the following upgrades:
Muzzy High flow fuel pump.
Possibly bigger injectors.
An intercooler would be nice.
Re-Mapping (Duh) The Muzzy Cumputer with the O2, air temp, Sensor, boost pressure input, and wastgate controller would be the ultimate.
Definately the Billet basket/Muzzy clutch, posibly a lock-up clutch.
The turbo and associated plumbing.
NOS May be cheaper to start with, but is actually a LOT less reliable, and can definately damage your engine. A turbo is like having a botomless NOS bottle, without any reliability problems. Im sure that Rob will have a low pressure turbo available for the ZX-12R soon, which wouldn't require all the stuff I listed, it's just my dream machine, and the way I'd build it.
Keep us posted if you decide to do it!
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
toprat
Novice Class
Posts: 38
|
posted December 09, 2001 01:13 PM
Edited By: toprat on 9 Dec 2001 16:52
Kawrider,
Where are you coming up with 14psi only equaling 200hp?
A stock 12 makes anywhere from 155-160 if you figure that 1psi=8-10hp then you are EASILY looking at 230-250 with 14psi. Some guys have made 295 with 14psi. On the older bikes it takes a lot more boost to make the same hp as the newer stuff.
____________
1991 ZX-11 Turbo
Too much is never Enough
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 09, 2001 08:42 PM
turbo HP
I see your point, my estimates are definately a bit conservative. Im sure Im at least 20 or so on the low side. Keep in mind that the "Guess-timates" are also based on lower compression pistons, and pump gas. Im talking reliable, run it like this for 50,000 miles pump gas... smoke anyone that even dares to try HP. Im no expert by any means, but it sure would be a fun bike to build. If I could just hit the lottery.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 09, 2001 08:50 PM
Awesome information KawRider!!!
I printed it off and and soon as I have a minute to review all of the information that you gave me, I'll be back with some more questions!!!
I thought that this Winter I would have extra time (No riding). I am freaking busy at home and at work!
____________
Life is an adventure. Are you driving?
|
harryzx-12
Needs a job
Posts: 3643
|
posted December 10, 2001 01:08 PM
I want a turbo BAD!
I've never owned a turbo bike but I would really like to have one.I don't want to put a turbo on my bike but instead want another bike , either another 12 or a Busa.NLR race system is what I wish for.Who knows what might happen this year?????
____________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted December 12, 2001 01:12 PM
TURBO!
Turbos twist your mind, alter your sense of reality...they are just the best HP rush out there. You CAN'T go back to an aspirated bike for long. Just bear that in mind before you take your first turbocharged hit. You'll want another. If you want to know more read "Turbochargers" by Hugh McInnes (HP Books), and the turbo websites:
www.750turbo.com
www.turbobikes.net
www.themotorhead.com
If you want to buy a kit for the 12, I'd hold fire for a little while til they are proven to be reasonably reliable. I'd also want 8:1 forged pistons, some decent rods, and a clutch that can take it. The 12 is an unknown quantity turbocharged...so be careful if you can't afford the risk. If you can, well, the Muzzy race turbo kit is supposed to be 500hp.
Lorc
8.69/162 750 Kawa.
____________
810cc - 211mph: www.750turbo.com
|
jessz1
Expert Class
Half the wheels, twice the fun
Posts: 373
|
posted December 12, 2001 04:31 PM
Hey Lorcan..
That GPZ holding up? Whats the latest?
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 12, 2001 08:15 PM
Awesome information
I am asking so many questions about a turbo to see if I should consider it or do one thing at a time. By that I mean get the 1270, extended swingarm and shoot-out tire. Play with that for a year then onto the next.....(Turbo).
And I do want to make sure that they are reliable....I may just wait and watch next year to see how the turbo is doing on "Someone else's Bike"....
You guy's are an awesome resource!!!! Thanks a million for your input.
|
Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
|
posted December 13, 2001 01:06 AM
Hi Jess
The latest it's getting a billet block (904cc), a belt-driven fuel pump and a new frame with a 10" slick. Watch this space... 
____________
810cc - 211mph: www.750turbo.com
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 13, 2001 02:12 PM
Kaw Rider
I really thought about the details that you gave on the ultimate set-up.....That sounds awesome. Thanks for all of the detail!!!!
My understanding is that a Turbo is adjustable. You can select the amount of boost that you want. Since I do not have a clue about it, I'm gonna ask a stupid qustion.
Adjustments - Is it like a dial adjustment??? How would you know how much to increase it???? When you buy a Turbo does it some with preferred settings???
The reason I am asking - I am kind of an throttle nut and the last thing that I want to do is mis adjust a setting an go over like a fly swatter when the Turbo kicks in.....
Also, I have not ridden a Turbo charged bike...Is it a gradual increase in hp....or a thrust????
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 13, 2001 02:50 PM
"She just flipped that dang thing at 140MPH"
Ang-
I really appreciate your interest. The most common way to limit (or adjust) boost if with an adjustable wastegate. It is a very simple device that is basically an adjustable diaphram (no jokes please) . On my gpz turbo, it is a knob that I turn... when I tighten the knob, it keeps the waste gate closed, allowing the boost to build to a higher PSI. The higher the PSI, the more power. The only limits to power made are: How much heat you create, and if you can prevent too much heat from damaging your engine. Pre-Ignition is what damages the engine (often called Detonation) is nothing more than your cylinder/pistons/valves (Combustion Chamber) getting so hot that the fuel/air mixture ignites before your pistons get a chance to squash the mixture properly (just before Top Dead Center). The cure to this is either cooling the air part of the fuel/air mixture (thru use of an intercooler), using higher octane fuel (believe it or not), the higher Octane fuel actually burns more SLOWLY than lower octane. This is why it is less prone to detonation when it gets in the cylinder. Another technique to help fight engine problems with a turbo is lower compression pistons. That is why I would like the lower comp pistons and intercooler on my dream machine. I don't believe in turbo-charging a bike with stock pistons, it's just not a smart thing to do if you want the motor to last for many many miles. Yes the kit's do provide thicker base or head gaskets, or spacers to lower compression, but I think that is a Half-assed way to address the problem. If you are going to dump 4 grand into your engine, you might as well add another 800 bucks, and do it properly with Low Compression, Forged pistons. Like I said in my earlier post, the best way to go would be larger displacement (1270) lower compression pistons. I don't think a stroker crank would be necessary, and I believe it would be bad for reliability. Back to the waste gate/boost settings question:
I have a liquid filled boost guage on my turbo bike that tells me just how much boost I added when I cranked her up. This is a must. Also for racing, I believe the 2 stage wastegate would be ideal. Like I said before, stage 1 would be "stock" or standard boost for street operation on pump gas. Stage 2, which you could activate thru a button, or thru the computer would be a much higher boost setting for the strip WHILE USING RACING fuel. I would have the MUZ computer go to the higher stage II setting in 3rd gear for starters, assuming you don't get a wheelie bar. An addition of say aboout 75 horsepower to the already 200 plus would be just the trick to a quick QM. Man it would be fun. Im pretty sure that the bike wouldn't wheelie too bad at the 3rd gear point. Well... this is getting terribly long... soo...
If anyone out there needs to correct me, please do so. I learn new things every day. I know you are a pretty smart girl, so I hope I didn't over-simplify things. Please feel free to ask more questions, this is absolutely my favorite subject.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 13, 2001 02:57 PM
Gradual?????
Gradual increase or thrust?
Gradual is a word that doesn't belong in the same Language, let alone paragraph with turbo. It is a rush you will not believe until you try it. It is kinda like going from a
EX-500 to a ZX-12.
I need to dyno my 85 turbo, but I believe it makes around 180 rear wheel or so on racing fuel. The torque is also quite impressive. about 125
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
jessz1
Expert Class
Half the wheels, twice the fun
Posts: 373
|
posted December 13, 2001 04:31 PM
The mcexpress turbo has a non adjustable wastegate standard. Adjustable is an option.
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted December 13, 2001 06:20 PM
quote:
Gradual increase or thrust?
Gradual is a word that doesn't belong in the same............It is kinda like going from a
EX-500 to a ZX-12.
I understand that!!! I went from a ZX6E to the ZX12R!!! No turning back now!!!!
Thanks for all of the input and I do not mind that you over simlify. I do understand how the engine works, but at least by your explaination I wasn't sitting here going......aaaahhhh, duhhh....what did he say
So in other words it is possible to flip the thing if your an idiot and unsure of what your adjusting / doing????
The only issue that I am thinking about is #1 - $$$$$$$ because just like the jump from ZX6E to 12R...if I jump to the Turbo ZX12R....No turning back....I'll be a broke puppy putting turbo's on any future bike that I own!!!
____________
Life is an adventure. Are you driving?
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 13, 2001 11:27 PM
Broke Puppy
Yeah.... I know the feeling. Im trying to scrape the money together for the billet basket/muz clutch upgrade now. My turbo could use a new clutch also, not to mention the clutch is starting to slip on my Toyota Celica. Damn.... 3 clutches at once! There is no way I'll be building my dream maching ZX-12R turbo anyime soon. I haven't even started drag racing yet, but I want to soon. I need to figure out how to make my printer make $500 bills or something.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 13, 2001 11:31 PM
Flip it
Yes, you could flip it....
But it's just like when you first got youre 12R.... you take things one step at a time.... gradually increasing speed, and learning how to control the bikes power. Im at the point where Im HP spoiled.... I don't care to ride anything with less than 150 HP.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
MO
Expert Class
Posts: 128
|
posted December 27, 2001 04:44 AM
I have a 82 GPZ 1135 with a MR Turbo kit, it is in a box now. waiting to be put back together, it will be a 1260 this time around!3yr street beatin & drags & never blew avoiding a ticket I over heated the head & the cam retainers pulled the threads out. 5th gear power wheelies, no shit! so you can forget about not wheelieing, I'm sure it will pull up in 6th! I would not do the 1270 & turbo for one it wouldnt really make any difference in power 1199+ turbo can make more power then you can keep in the cases and the thicker cyl. walls[stock] will be more benifical to relability then 70cc are worth
____________
KW
|
MO
Expert Class
Posts: 128
|
posted December 27, 2001 04:47 AM
and there is a electronic boost controler it will limit the boost per gear so every gear pulls like 1st! 6, 1st gears whoo hoo!
____________
KW
|
KawRider
Expert Class
Posts: 329
|
posted December 27, 2001 08:42 AM
1270
Mo-
Thanks for joining in on the Turbo Talk. Sounds like a bad-asses Gpz! I agree with the fact that a re-bore wouldn't be necessary, but I would at least do a 1mm overbore to have a fresh cylinder when dropping in the lower compression pistons. That is my main reason to punch it out a bit, the use of lower compression pistons.
____________
Tim
Black ZX-14
|
MO
Expert Class
Posts: 128
|
posted December 28, 2001 04:57 AM
my brother is turbo'n his busa right now new pistons, rods.they told him dont touch the cyl. I took a look at them & they still look fresh, that cyl. coating is some hard shit! so you should have no problem droping new slugs in with out even a hone job. I think the rings are still sealing at 10=12000 mi people have said they keep running stronger& stronger the more miles they rack up, your right about lower compression pistons because you can get stronger aftermarket pistons, but a base gasket would be acceptable,& a thicker quality/copper head gasket should be fine too.the only real draw back to lowering comp. this way is you lose your quench area that creates tubulence in your combustion chamber. BUT,they say with forced induction theres alot of turbulence any way. regardless how you make power dont ask a stock engine to make more then 50%more power
____________
KW
|
hondo
Expert Class
Posts: 140
|
posted December 30, 2001 01:14 AM
Good point MO. The bottom end needs help,....maybe. I would like to know how many 12's with rod/crank bearing failures were using synthetic oil. I've read posts now about failures with N20, and stroker/bore kits. INTRA has posted two bearing related failures. At the very least the bearing clearances should be checked before a major HP boost!
My combination would be:
1. Stock bore, allows maximum cylinder wall strength.
2. Custom, thick dome pistons with a dish on the top to allow both squish and reasonable compression.
3. Dyke style top piston rings, medium tension oil rings.
4. Coat the pistons; sides for lubrication and ceramic on the top.
5. Stroke the crankshaft to gain back low RPM torque lost to compression ratio reduction.
6. Very mild port clean-up. Paying special attention to the exhaust side. A turbo is not "free" HP like some auto kits state. The potential of high exhaust backpressure exists.
7. Stock rods need polished/magnafluxed and balanced as a set. I've not read of any stock rod separation failures.
8. Bearing clearances to the middle of the tolerance.
9. I'm not now and would not use synthetic oil on any highly stressed engine. I do use Mobil 1 in our cars though.
10. Clutch work and transmission engagement dog backcutting.
11. High boost! I've saved some literature somewhere from when I owned a CX500T Honda. It was faster from 50-120MPH than my stock ZX1000 and had both high compression ratio and high boost. Probably was heavier than the KZ also.
12. Cam timing changes to maximize the exhaust flow.
13. Muzzy's pump and injector's.
14. Stock computer with the Yoshimura ECM.
15. Adjustable waste gate.
____________
Candy Persimmon Red may be slower, but I'm trying!
|
EDBADASS12
Novice Class
Posts: 63
|
posted December 30, 2001 05:19 PM
From my experience a 1270 is a much easier motorcycle to drag race than a turbo bike. A couple times this year I rode a turbo Busa and the power comes on really strong all at once making it alot harder to ride. I have to admit that this bike was not set up properly for drag racing and not having an extended swingarm and 265 hp. I am very happy with the results with my 1270 with a 3 inch extended swingarm. This year I am going to a 6 inch over swingarm and probably nitros. I am thinking that 8.50's is not impossible with this set up. I think you would be very happy with a 1270.
BADASS12
____________
Sponsored by ProStock Performance. The #1 Performance Shop in Cincinnati.8.80@167
|
ZX12Girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
|
posted January 01, 2002 02:00 PM
Tech. Assistance!!!
Man, ask and you shall receive!!!!
OK, now I am overwhelmed with information.
You guy's are an awesome resource!!! Thanks!!
____________
Life is an adventure. Are you driving?
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC