kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted June 26, 2003 02:20 PM
Hindle Pipes? Vince???
Anyone know if the "Step Hindle" is anything like the "Brock Hindle"??? (Brock Davidson)...
I will be calling Brock's shop and Hindle tomorrow to see what they say...
   
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted June 26, 2003 08:36 PM
I think you'll find that Brocks pipe is the only "hindle"-ish version WITHOUT the little splitter thing where the pipe goes from 4-2 or from 2-1.
I believe all of the pure Hindle's have that splitter thing.
Email me for more info Kev. Brocks shop is 937-298-6818 I think.
sportbikeral@hotmail.com
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted June 27, 2003 06:30 AM
BA is correct. Brock felt that the splitter plate in the collector took away top end power and would be better for "Built" Engines. Lee said that they tested them bith ways and felt that the slight advantage was more than off set by the easier to tune and more midrange the plate provided. Think of them as both being race pipes but the Brock is less street oriented!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted June 27, 2003 08:37 AM
THANK'S GUYS!!!
Getting ready to call them now (anyway  )...
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted June 27, 2003 01:42 PM
At least you will already be ahead of the game when they start to explain, plus knowing in advance you can ask better questions (like Diveability on the street) and yes they have a very strong support program (Brock), but is it worth $200 more?
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted June 27, 2003 05:10 PM
The owner of the bike was already expecting to pay a Grand for pipes so that's OK (we get dealer cost...of coarse)...
Lees and Brock did say that the Brock-Hindle DOES make more power...we WILL try one!!!
And...I WILL test it Back to Back against John's Muzzys Full-Ti 
Thank's again Vince...
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted June 27, 2003 08:56 PM
 Edited By: BA on 27 Jun 2003 22:07
Hey Kev, I've already done that and Brock's pipe won, hands down, for for me. Same day testing. Also tested the HMF I originally had. It's pretty much the same as the muzzy, even in design.
Still would like to hear of your results to see if they match, ya sea-level bastard.
Just remember that a pipes 'airflow capabilities' includes any changes to the ram-air effect, which obviously the dyno can't give you.
tell Brocks peeps you want the Big Al Special.
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted June 28, 2003 08:59 AM
quote:
Lees and Brock did say that the Brock-Hindle DOES make more power...we WILL try one!!!
And...I WILL test it Back to Back against John's Muzzys Full-Ti
Already did this on a bone stock bike. Results on my website. The stepped Hindle made more. The open (no divider plates) Hindle is supposed to be for big power bikes.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted June 28, 2003 09:37 AM
Thank's again folks...
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted June 28, 2003 07:03 PM
Rereading post....
Meant to say that the MUZZY and the HMF are practically identical to each other in power.
Made more power with the Stepped Hindle/Brock design.
Still stickin' with the airflow comment though on the various Hindle's.
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lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
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posted June 28, 2003 09:15 PM
kcadby i am really intrested in your test. i pulled the muzzy and the k&ns off my camed 1270. and made almost 10 hp on the dyno with no other changes only had a lean spot around 4000 rpm . cleaned it up. this is the problem though i lost .08 in the 1/8 and 3 to 4 mph. i dont understand. the 1/4 mph is about the same as with the muzzy. maybe your test will help us. maybe my results will help you. im not that happy. the only thing i can reason is that it was about 15 deg. cooler when i ran the muzzy. would that make that big a diff?
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted July 01, 2003 11:50 AM
Yes...15* IS A BIG DIFF....
VINCE!!!
Is the 2 1/4" race muffler/system the same thing as the "Step Hindle"???
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 01, 2003 12:31 PM
Part 75-ZX1200SSR - Hindle Stainless Steel RACE Header ZX12R '00-'03
Hand crafted in Canada, Hindle exhaust "RACE" systems are designed to give maximum Top End horsepower. Manufactured from thin wall stainless steel, these race pipes are completely spring mounted and contain all hardware, springs and flanges needed for installation. Hindle "Race System" mufflers have a larger inlet diameter ( 2 1/4") then standard system mufflers, but are still available in either in your choice of polished aluminum, Titanium, or carbon fiber in round or oval shell design.* For a complete Hindle exhaust system, you must select a muffler from the options column *
AKA "Step tube system"! Use the 2 1/4 Muffler and best at 20 inches long! Oval a lot quieter! Does this anwser it better ?
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted July 02, 2003 08:35 AM
YES it DOES...THANK YOU VINNY!!!
ZX1200SSr it IS!!!
Brock's pipe is WAY over priced (dealer cost)...
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 03, 2003 06:41 AM
Brock's makes 1 to 3 "MAX" Hp more and loses everywhere else and is harder to tune! $635 is dealer for Step Tube with Oval ti 20 inch muffler! Call Street & Competition and open your account. They are Hindle's #1. When Lang & Lee are in Daytona, that is where they are!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted July 03, 2003 12:28 PM
I'd have to disagree with ya there Vince. To say that Brocks pipe "loses everywhere else" is totally misleading. I won't even bother with the harder to tune bit.
I don't really like comparing vendors in the forum's unless one is a CLEAR waste of money, and in this case neither Hindles nor Brocks version fits into that category.
Regardless of how much HP either pipe makes at peak, and regardless of the results of your testing, (did you compare them on a dyno?) the Brock version (splitter-less design) made me and others faster at the dragstrip. Black and White.
For mostly street riding, the straight Hindle could very well be better, I didn't bother to compare mid-range, but I did compare at the track and those splitters slowed me down, plain and simple, even though the dyno HP was comparable.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 03, 2003 12:52 PM
Kevin never said what the owner plans to do with the bike? If it is on the street, no question, the Standard Hindle! If it is for the strip, harder decision because the Brock is biased for the top! Do not look at me about the tuning issue, I talked to Lee and Lang at Daytona about the pipes and they just shook their heads on the tuning issue for a street Bike. If the difference is that great and the cost is that higher, I would consider removing the plate myself! The Bikes will not pull a smooth line on the Dyno off idle to 8K!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted July 03, 2003 03:53 PM
The bike will probably be raced but is mostly street ridden...
Owner is VERY inexperienced...to the point that I am truly worried about giving him TOO MUCH power...
The comment made about price??? We will make TWICE AS MUCH +!!! on the Race Hindle over what Brock charges (us) for his version so...I thought it was worth a comment...
NOTHING "tunes" as difficult as 600cc bikes (no matter who makes them) although I haven't been lucky??? enough to tune/map a Kaw-6 yet...
The Race Hindle will be here Tue. when I come back to work so...we shall see how it goes
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted July 03, 2003 09:00 PM
cool.
[place thumbs-up emoticon here]
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Brock
Sponsor
Posts: 560
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posted July 10, 2003 12:29 PM
Hello all and NICE forum!
I just wanted to take a moment to set the record straight on our new ZX-12 pipe that Hindle makes for Brock's Performance.
First, we do not run the splitter plates.....We feel that they waste real world acceleration and hurt top end performance ON SOME BIKES by compromising the air box's ability to sufficiently fill the cylinders. This is proven at the track and measured to the thousandth of a second /MPH.....we do not care what the Dyno says.
Second, we are the ONLY source for the 2 ΒΌ full through Muffler.
Hindle makes this exclusively for Brock's Performance. We also found MPH gains in conjunction with our no splitter plate design.
It made no difference with the step....
YES, we are race oriented......but NO Sportbike product from Brock's Performance will EVER be sold by us if it detracts from the street ability of the machine!!
As far as tuning goes... we supply the maps, they are as perfect as we know how to make them to allow the bike to accelerate as hard as possible!
We supply Dyno maps to the guys who want to impress their friends. We have to provide quality maps to our customer, which means we have to tune the bikes. This also means PERFECT throttle control...formerly know as "how it carburete's"......everywhere.
Developing a system which is "harder to tune" is board nonsense and would be foolish on our part.
In fact, the first system we first tested was SO poor that we refused to sell it......some raved about IT on the boards?
The good news is that as a result of our changes, both the step and our StreetSmart system are better pipes.
We just sold a StreetSmart System to a 2002 ZX-12R customer down south. He installed the system and loaded our map at his dealership... then put it up on the Dyno.
It made 178 SAE hp. He called, a bit concerned because they had seen 182 before. I explained the difference between a Dyno and track map.
He then headed to the track. He ran a 9.29@153 MPH stock wheelbase/foot shifting (he's an excellent rider and the track is AT sea level).....his next call contained no worries!
It is hard for me to surf....we are too busy trying to make bikes faster.
If anyone has questions, I invite you to visit the Brock's Performance Information Forum: http://brockracing.com/forum/default.asp
Or e-mail advice@brockracing.com
Thanks and GO FAST,
Brock
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 10, 2003 06:34 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 10 Jul 2003 19:47
First, Brock WELCOME to this board! It is raining right now in Washington DC and you just forced me to put on a few more cloths and run outside with my Vernier Caliper to measure the end tip of my Muffler. It was 1.94 inch ID (2 inch OD)! The Inlet was 2.25 ID . Second, Lang and I Road Raced together in the late 70 and early 80 and I have made the trip to Uxbridge Cabada to his place, so I do know him. From talking to tham, "I" got the impression that the difference between your pipe and the Street / Race (So called) Step tube pipe is that "They" found it was easier to tune the pipe with the divider plate (left in) at low and mid range for the street" on stock ZX12R engined (Un-modified). He also said that the removal of the plate made the pipe a 4-2-1 design, shorter in the 2 section (which to me meant that it biased the power band higher, my words).I have seen some of their earlier Step Tubes in France that had so short of a "2" section that it was almost a 4-1. From what I could find out elsewhere and your own words, that your pipe worked better on "Built" (larger, breathed upon) engines.
We know that you are "Extremely" Careful with what you sell and that your customer service (Maps and techinical support) is 1st class. Is there any disagreement with my understanding of the pipes and their differences?
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted July 10, 2003 06:40 PM
My dyno-testing is done with the new RaceHindle and "used" Full-Ti Muzzys...
Too late to go into detail now (still at work and NEED to go home) but...they were very close on max power...close enough that I can honestly say that air temp and the motor breaking in on the dyno probably made the difference...
Howerver the Hindle did NOT hurt the way the bike runs below 3,000...the Muzzys did...this was WITHOUT Custom mapping...I DID howerver...map at 100% throttle with both pipes to see max power...
Long story short...this bike (at 94+ degrees in dyno room) only made 170HP (168 with Muzzys in hottest part of day)...
This bike doesn't run "right" at low revs for some reason (worst running 12 I've ever seen...even WITH STOCK PIPES) so I didn't finish it yet...I was hopping it was only T-Body synch but that didn't fix it (even though they WERE out of adjustment) I need to check to injectors, coils, by-pass settings to see what's up...
Oh ya...it made 156hp Showroom Stock (much cooler part of day/morning) at 950miles (grandmother driven miles)...
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 10, 2003 06:57 PM
Kevin, I sent you an e-mail. I know you make your own stuff, but if the bike is a 00 or 01, you never said (The last post said 950 miles so most likely it is an 03 or 02 but you never know nowadays because they are still selling new 00 & 01) what it was, I have 2 very good maps for street and HP for an 00 and 01!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted July 12, 2003 10:16 AM
Edited By: kcadby on 12 Jul 2003 11:22
My E-mail has been down for "a while" Vince (don't tell fish/frEEk ) so I'm sure it will get kicked back to you...thank's for trying though...I WOULD like to see the #s that are in it (AND what it would do on the dyno and street )...
The bike IS an 02...I would be VERY surprised if anyone could send me any "Magic Maps" though...
I have to disagree...even with Brock that any "one map" will cover/work better on several bikes than a custom map...
I say this because I have never seen any maps make more power than a map done for THE bike that is being tunned...
I'm NOT saying that more power on the dyno means better "real world" performance/MPH though...
The A/F I had on this "weak" 12 looked VERY good/straight/even through the rpm range so it's not like I mapped it poorly...
"average good running" Stock Motor ZX12s make 172 to 174HP on our dyno...
JOHN'S has made as high as 184 this past "cool season" ON NUTEC fuel with the Muzzys Fuel pump (it DID make more power when I mapped it with the new pump 176+ with pump gas)...
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted July 12, 2003 02:27 PM
Kevin, what I have found is that a good map for one person is really in the Ball park for another but usually needs to be tweeked. If you go to "Easy's" Site and under the maps, mine are listed there. Since mine is an 00 and the 02's have different systems, I have found that from 0 to 20% throttle position, using 1/2 of my fuel adjustments seem to work fairly well! Where I need 45% more fuel, the newer bikes need about 22% more fuel, so look there to see. Yes I got return mail!
I am very Glad Brock posted here, because I did not know about the Muffler and wondered how the straight pipe I am having to make which would have been 2.25 inches ID would work! Now I think it will work better! I may even consider shortening the splitter plate in October also!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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