supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 22, 2003 12:24 PM
How much do you think it will make
Here is a list of the mods. What should this bike make on the dyno. I am going to start getting everything together tonight and maybe get a map built this coming week. I cannot get a decent or even close map anywhere due to the fact that I have an 02 model.
New Bear Stacks
Titanium Retainers
Upgraded Valve springs
Shot Peened, Balanced rods
Stroker Crank
J&E Pistons 13.1 to 1
Billet Basket
Muzzy's Clutch Kit
Port Cleanup on head
Degreed Cams to 105in 105ex
Stepped Hindle
Yosh EMS running zero map
Bonneville Box
17/46 gearing
NGK CR9EK plugs
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
  
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 22, 2003 12:33 PM
Michael,
I'm gonna say 205hp & 118tq. (hope I'm guessing low)
When's Bristol opening up?
Dan
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted April 22, 2003 12:45 PM
stock BORE 13.1 to 1 ?
If so then ~190-195.
With 1270 or 1290 pistons then 205-210.
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 22, 2003 04:10 PM
 Edited By: supraman95mb on 23 Apr 2003 15:25
Bristol will be opening up for the first time on May 6th Dan.
Well how about 177rwhp 1st pass. Second pass 152rwhp. They shut down there and the shop tore it apart today. Had it apart by lunch and the no4 rod bearing was gone. Funny the bike only had 850 miles on it. I am a hardcore breakin person and broke it in right. I have only had it together for almost 2 weeks. I have been riding it every day after work to get the breakin done before the deals gap event.
Funny thing is I put brand new everything in this motor; rods, gaskets, bearings, oil pickup, etc which I purchased with the help of Team Milholland from the Kawi dealership they work at. I have never spent so much to do something right. ($4500 to date not including the labor and labor with todays teardown) When we pulled the motor apart the head was soaked with oil so it was oiling properly. The mains looked perfect, rod journals were another story. One was bad as stated earlier but you could tell that the other three were going to spin at any moment. We compared it to a falicon crank they had that was going in dwarf car and they looked nothing alike. Had a guy that builds the Nascar cup motors here say that he thought the crank may not have been heat treated after the modifications That was the only explanation he knew and the guys at the shop have never had this happen with the dwarf motors they build that turn 11k rpms at all times. I am going to have to replace all 4 rods again, new crank, and figure out something with the pistons depending on what crank I go with (money wise). Does anyone know where muzzys gets their cranks done?
Lets just say I have had several 12's and never had this much nerve problems and stress. I am working with Muzzys on this right now as there was some misunderstanding as to the time between when I purchased the kit and when I actually had the funds to get it installed. I pray that they will come to help me with this as I have given them more business and my own money than they will ever know. I have had around 6 or so kaws with extensive muzzy products (somewhere in the $10K range including my Zx9 days I am sure). This is the first time I have ever went internal and boy have all of this years shows and events that I wanted to be at ever been just demolished.
I guess this really kills my ESPN showing they were wanting to do as a recap to the showing I had last year. I wanted to have alot to show this time around we they did it again. Oh well that would have been some good camera time for 12s and maybe we can still do it if we can get this back together in time. May even get a Muzzys logo on it if they can help me with the situation. Time will tell. If not I may sell the bike in parts and start over with something else.
I emailed Muzzy several times and was never able to get an 02 1361 map period. I think this was due to some of the confusion of where I bought the kit from. That is understandable of course.
____________
02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted April 23, 2003 04:21 PM
I hate hearing of such bad luck... 
Stupid question but...you ARE sure that the bearings clearanced OK???
I sure would like to see the crank...In stock form they are VERY durable...
I've seen some bearings go bad without hurting the crank at all...hardly even a mark...
Took one apart that had 20,000+ miles on it...looked GREAT...
You have GOT to find someone that can map that thing for you when you get it back together (nothing to do with bearings dying though)...
The 1361 I built is an 02...for some reason the Muzzys map was realy rich for us here in Fl but...EVERY bike/map/jet kit I run here seems to run rich though...
Sorry to here this man...
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 23, 2003 05:32 PM
Kcadby; I would love to sit and chat with you sometime. Everytime I see something you post I take it and put it in a notepad to remember for later. If I would have been close by I would have no doubt let you build my motor. This is just a horrible experience for me.
As far as the bearings being clearanced, They bought an 02 Kawi manual and went by it for the bearings. They also platicgauged it. (I am not an expert on this as I am good with external mods so I may be confused with something here.) The mains were perfect but the rod bearings; one was shot the other three were getting ready to spin. However the guy that built my motor has built an absolute ton of the motors for the dwarf cars (Yamaha 1200's, a few gsxr 1100's, etc) He has built motors that turn 11k rpms continuously for years. The other mechanic is about 45yrs old and worked for a KAWI dealer for 25yrs and is a great mechanic. He now works at this shop because they specialize in this type of stuff and not dealership repairs, fixes, etc. He races alot of bikes and has built some crazy stuff. This is a specialty shop that just does upgrades and builds. They dont sell bikes or anything like a dealership.
I am really good with cars, having built two 700+ hp supra turbos. I am currently working on the second one now. However these are all computer, Turbo, fuel, and other bolt on mods. I have never went internal on motors until I decided to do this 1361 kit and I am not even thinking about that. Do you have a no. that I can call you at and just ask you a few small questions. I promise not to take up your time. I just would like to ask your thoughts on some questions I have, your a superior engine builder when it comes to 12's and that is why I would like speak with you. Email me at supraman95mb@hotmail.com when you get a chance.
Thanks KCADBY!!!!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted April 24, 2003 03:34 AM
Sorry to hear bout yer motor. That really bites.
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 24, 2003 04:14 AM
Michael,
Zack told me yesterday, man it bummed me out....can't imagine your thoughts.
Hope things work out with Muzzy, let me know 'cause we'll see him in two weeks.
Dan
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 24, 2003 04:48 AM
what event are you going to be going to dan?
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 24, 2003 07:32 AM
Chad's racing in Richmond, VA.
Muzzy should be there with Ryan on the Pro Mod bike.
Dan
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DR JOE
Expert Class
Posts: 352
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posted April 24, 2003 07:34 AM
Update! -01/16/02
Improved welded stroker cranks
The Muzzy 59.4 mm "1361 kit" stroker cranks included in the 1361 kit now feature improved finishing with nitride surface hardening, a micro polished bearing surface finish, and precision balancing as standard. These improvements should enhance reliability and come at no additional cost to retail kit buyers. (Prices of individual crankshafts and 1270 upgrades are increased)
This is off Muzzys site... When did you recieve your crank??? I would point this out....
DR JOE
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 24, 2003 07:42 AM
I did alot of research on this Dr. Joe. I know all about what you just posted. That is why I am wondering if I got one that missed a step or two. It weird that all of my mains are perfect but the rod journals are the ones with the problem.
Dan I may just have to show up for that event as well and see if I can ask him a ? or two. What do you think?
____________
02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 24, 2003 09:30 AM
Rob had some time in Atlanta due to the rain. He answered ALOT of questions from several of us.
I'm not sure if a NHRA race is scheduled the same week-end, that's their first priority. I'll find out and let you know for sure.
Dan
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oldkawboy
Needs a job
Posts: 2125
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posted April 24, 2003 11:10 AM
Just got an email from Ryan and he said they'll be in Atlanta for the NHRA races that week-end.
At least you've been able to deal with Doug on the other board some and he's aware of your problem.
We are shooting for the May 8th race at Bristol.
Dan
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 24, 2003 12:36 PM
Edited By: supraman95mb on 24 Apr 2003 13:36
Thanks for the info Dan, Cant wait to see you and all of Team Milholland.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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DR JOE
Expert Class
Posts: 352
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posted April 24, 2003 02:41 PM
Edited By: DR JOE on 24 Apr 2003 15:42
Hey Supra I pulled that right off muzzy web site and posted it here for you. I'm sure that you have seen it, but it just sounds wierd that this happened (Crank failing) and now this????? I hope that you do get it fixed...
DR JOE
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 24, 2003 04:47 PM
That statement is one of the reasons I went with the kit!!!!!!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted April 24, 2003 07:04 PM
Hey Supraman, man, I cannot tell you how much I'm down for you bro'. This could SOO easily be me in your shoes. You rake together a *bundle* of cash for something really sweet, and then outta no where, and before you really get to enjoy it you get smacked upside the head with a 2x4.
Anyway, I'm the LAST guy, ok, 2nd to last guy, that you'd want to do internal engine work (like you are too), and I can't help but to think to myself that the answer has GOT to be right in front of you!
I mean, all 4 rod bearings. Main bearings are FINE.
"Shot Peened, Balanced rods
Stroker Crank "
Only 850 break-in miles?!?!?
Sounds like you can rule out 'oil flow', yes?
You can rule out anything doing to too much load too early in the mileage.
You can rule out anything RPM or nitrous related.
It SOUNDS like you have competent mechanics.
Sherlock Holmes would say something like - "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. -- The Blanched Soldier"
*Bearings wrong size.
*Rod bolts not at proper torque setting.
*Bearing clearance wrong.
*Bearings not inserted correctly for oil flow.
I'm admitted neophyte to deep engine building.
Someone tell me I'm clueless or spot on.  I'm game for it.
I think the shop should stand next to their work. IMHO.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 25, 2003 06:02 AM
BA, how about incorrect or no hardness in the rewelded Rod Bearing Journals? If everything was perfect, then this is something that could not be avoided!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted April 25, 2003 07:11 AM
Rewelded Rod Bearing Journals?? Ok, that went right over my head, I didn't know there were rewelded rod-anything involved? We don't use a nut and bolt like a V-8 rod? 
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 25, 2003 09:27 AM
Yeah this is a stroker crank so the journals for the rods were altered to get the 4mm extra stroke. The rod were new, same as the bearings. The shop builds these same motors all of the time for dwarf car racing and they turn 11k rpm for like 2hrs straight with no problems. They plastigauged everything and also went by the manual which tells you what sizes are used. Everything was brand new and installed correctly. I watched the entire process to make sure they were careful with my stuff and did it right. It was really torquey when I got it the first 2 days. (torquey because I didnt turn more than 6krpms for awhile) after that the butt dyno told a different story from about 500 miles on up.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted April 27, 2003 05:25 AM
Even if the welds were not hardened, proper oiling and bearing clearance would last longer than 850 miles. New car, "Pinto or Escort or Neon" cranks are not race preped to my knowledge( but maybe). Something was wrong in 3 areas:
1)Bad stroke job....(journals not round)
2)Mistakes during the build....(all 4 rod bearings having issues)
3)Okay 2 issues...
This is definitely not the first with 1361 kits. A guy near me had the same thing happen twice with a Muzzy 1361 kit. First time on the dyno, I saw that crank and all 4 journal were complete burnt but the main were fine! Second kit, it siezed up and broke a rod right through the block. He gave up as neither got warranty or explaination from Muzzy. Good luck, but when people don't understand why I feel the way that i do, these are some of the reasons. Most zx12 guys are NOT on this internet page or even on the net. So thousands of true life stories go untold and unknown by us.
Oh, i too was unable to get a map for a kit that i bought from Muzzy's, acutally KCADBY sent me his maps way back in the day!!! (I just reread an old thread and saw that)
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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Zhooligan
Moderator
Post Whore Extraordinaire!
Posts: 3829
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posted April 27, 2003 09:58 AM
I would tend to go along with ra12's thought on this. I would add that I have seen severl 12's after rebuild take what I would consider an abnormal amount of time to make oil pressure. And there have been a few posts here about guys having trouble after an oil change having to burp their filters etc. to get oil pressure.
But based on what it sounds like happened to you I would be inclined to think that something went wrong on the crank work. I would keep talking to Muzzy about this as they did'nt exactly sell you a 39 cent part there!
A few years back I had MVR build me a 1380 XX. We had some issues with the JE Pistons and the engine came a part (blew up in a very big way) because of issues with the pistons. JE said gosh sorry to hear about that. Well after a few discussions they paid for the new cases, block, head, cams, pistons (pretty much everything except for the water pump and transmission) along with paid my enginebuilder to build the engine again. Calm discussions and the power of the internet. It starts by getting the supplier, yourself and your engine builder on the phone together.
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To those who do not count their life in years, but in how life
has touched them in the past and how much it can hold in the
future; -- Youth is forever.
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted April 27, 2003 05:58 PM
Thanks RA12 and Zhooligan, I have spoke with another person who got rid of 12's altogether due to a problem he had with a stroker kit as well. I know alot of you have been following this build and know what all I have went through. I am sending muzzys all of my receipts, paperwork, document from the install shop and notes from the builder. I hope to get some of this resolved soon. We will see what happens.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted April 27, 2003 07:20 PM
I know that some people think I am a Hot head and leap at first sight, But what I have usually done is report on the problem on the net (This type of stuff needs to be known so that others know what they are up against) and then speak to the people involved. Trust me when I say this, everyone except one person stepped up to the plate and did 100% correct for me! You know the other person! We all know that nothing can be done until they have it in their hands. Until that time, the clock does not begin!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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