RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 06:12 PM
Lost the engine on the green 12 today :(
Just got home.. details to follow...
  
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Your Car Is Slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted March 25, 2003 06:35 PM
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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wannabe
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted March 25, 2003 07:01 PM
bummer..
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AnotherRedHead
Expert Class
Posts: 348
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posted March 25, 2003 08:45 PM
Blow it up on bottle?
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 09:49 PM
No, no nitrous! I didn't even get a chance to spray it with the new progressive controller, this was all motor no nitrous!
Right now we're guessing spun bearing... don't know yet, until I tear it out tomorrow or at least get the oil drained and the pan off it. Here's the story:
I had just taken the bike out to Champion Motorsports for a quick dyno-tuning session on the wideband to get the fuel mapping sorted out for Maxton this weekend.
I had my nitrous mapping in the PC3R but we were running it N/A on the dyno, no nitrous. It started at around 190rwhp, climbing to 194 after a couple of pulls with no changes just getting heat in the engine and cleaning out the plugs.
Keep in mind this map is super fat (for nitrous) and the plugs are CR10s which are one-step colder than stock and non-platinum. This seemed like reasonable horsepower number considering these conditions, no alarms set off (yet).
Anyway after a couple pulls it started cleaning out the plugs, it picked up a couple ponies here and there upto 193~194 with absolutely no map changes just WOT on the dyno as the bike "woke up". A/F ratio was in the 10.2~11.8:1 (rich) range...
All of the sudden on the 5th dyno pull it sharply dropped power (almost 16rwhp) at 11,200rpm like a falling off a ledge.. We were like WTF?!!!
No noise. No changes to the map. No rattles, no smoke, no detonation.
We stopped for about 15 to 20 minutes to scratch our heads a bit, but we couldn't find anything wrong. We double-checked the mapping, everything looked fine no corrupt numbers in the map (as we've seen before when PC3R's go bad). We just couldn't figure it out.
So we decided to remove any timing advance in the PC3R just for kicks, which was anywhere from +3 to +5 degrees, resetting it to zero across the board. Although from the way power dropped off a ledge like this was doing, we pretty much knew this wasn't related to the issue but we figured what the hell give it a try.
The bike had cooled down, so then we we made another pull.. no "boom" just a rediculously low 165rwhp!! and only 150 @ 11,800!!!! we quit at that point! Holy shit something is screwed.. don't know what yet but it's obvious we need to stop dyno'ing the bike!
First I pulled the plugs, all four looked absolutely perfect. DAMN that sucks I was hoping maybe it was just plugs! Checked over the bike with a fine-tooth comb, no obvious leaks around the engine, coolant looks good. Bike wasn't over-heating, and the oil light and FI lights weren't on either. Hell the bike actually starts and runs fine! Sounds good, idles good, WTF!
So I called Lee Shierts. Of course getting thru Lee's ARMY of Goons on the phone is always fun. A whole other story within a story: I ask to speak with Lee and get the standard "who are you and what is this about" routine. I say "this is Bergie, can I speak with Lee please" and the guy is like "I need to know what it's about before I can put a call through to LEE" so I tell him "it's about my engine, just tell him it's Bergie" and he gives me some speech about how he needs more detailed information, so I finally said "DUDE, LEE KNOWS WHO I AM just tell him it's Berg.. THANKS". He was like "ooooooookaaaay" AS IF he was doing me a favor and with a tone like there's NO-chance LEE will talk to me.. WHATEVER!! Of course Lee picks up, obviously. First thing I tell Lee is that he needs better calls screeners!  Anyone could get thru!  End of story within a story
Anyway Lee was nice enough to help me out best he could over the phone. He described to me (before I said anything about the dyno chart) what happens when you're about to lose an engine on the dyno. The sharp drop during the last 1000 RPM, then the massive loss of power on the next pull. And of course possible total destruction if you keep going! He said 90% chance bearing failure, and that it's probably one-pull away from massive or catastophic engine failure he says "don't run it again!" Hell I listen to what he says after all he knows his shit, he built it!
So.. am I pissed? Nope. Hell who knows how many bottles of nitrous, dozens of 200MPH+ top-speed runs at Maxton, I counted over 650+ dragstrip runs from last season, got it solid in the 8s, and achieved every goal I had expected to with the bike since Lee built it. I knew it wouldn't last forever, hell almost eight thousand street miles on this engine!! That's 5000 more than Lee thought it would last the way I beat on it! It's safe to say I beat the shit out of that bike.
Obviously at this point I'm only speculating as to if it's even engine failure, hell technically it could be something as stupid as a PC3R problem or my timing retard box, but I'm too scared to pull those off and make another dyno pass without looking at the oil very closely first.
It should be clear when I drain the oil tomorrow if there is contamination in the oil, especially since I just changed the oil and filter this afternoon before going to the dyno!
I left the green monster at Champion because I didn't want to ride it home. I will go trailer it home tomorrow. Like I said luckily it still runs, no knock, probably coulda rode it home but didn't chance it.
I have the dyno runs printed, I want you to see the curves. I'm scanning now, I will post the chart in a bit. The wierd thing is the power curve is identical all the was across the curve, just 45hp LOW.
I'm just glad this problem became visible to me on the dyno today, not at 200mph at Maxton this weekend. I can't imagine holding on to a destructing engine at the top end of the standing mile!
I'm also luck that I have a spare Silver 2001 ZX12R. Rich is coming over tomorrow night we'll transfer my steering damper over to the silver 12 and safety wire the bike. I just spent like 10 hours wiring the damn nitrous controllers and shit on my green bike so I'm not moving it over, maybe next week or something I will pull the engine from the silver bike and put it in the green chassis and just ride / race that until I can rebuild the stroked engine.
For this weekend however I will just run 100% stock ZX12R with stock exhaust just for fun! Except I don't have a Bonneville box so I guess 186mph is my speed limit this weekend...
So.. how was your day?
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 25, 2003 10:17 PM
CHART
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 26, 2003 12:25 AM
Wow dude that sucks!! but could have been alot worse, with a bearing spin you should have some kind of deep thump in the motor? you can hear it. hope it is only the PCIII or something like that. oh my day well let's see It is 2AM and I just got back from putting the motor together. so not as bad as your's for sure but damn tired!
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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Lorcan
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted March 26, 2003 12:45 AM
Sorry to hear that Bergie. Are 12s prone to spinning bearings?
The first time I ran my 750 turbo after hopping it up it went from 10.9 to 9.4 (in one run!) but spun the bearings. I kept running it of course to total destruction but otherwise experienced exactly the same power loss as above. It's a plain bearing crank, just like the 12. So we pinned the bearings to the rods so they can't spin. It has run 8.6 - 8.8 since then and no more problems. It has ally rods so I don't know if you can do the same procedure with the steel rods but it might be worth investigating if that's possible. We also run the bearing size with the biggest clearance to give it more of an oil cushion. There are 3 sizes from Kawasaki, there is only 0.0005" between them but every little helps.
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810cc - 211mph: www.750turbo.com
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 26, 2003 01:08 AM
Bergie,
sorry to hesr about yer troubles, but at least you shut it down before any big holes appeared in yr cases.
I hope you have enough time while tearing it down to snap some of yr famous pix of the process!
Good luck!
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zrxdean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted March 26, 2003 08:24 AM
Sorry to hear it Bergie, but you're right, you can't ask for too much more than what you got out of that motor. Maybe this is just an opportunity to make it faster
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RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
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posted March 26, 2003 09:48 AM
Yep it will be faster next time out for sure, not going to worry about size limits, probably go something along the route Karl took, BIG! Of course I'm open to your advice/suggestions and for that matter I'm not "certain" it's a bearing or engine failure as of yet, I'm going to pick the bike up right now.
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ninjamissile
Expert Class
Posts: 222
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posted March 26, 2003 10:12 AM
Sorry Bergie, but I'm sure you will be back bigger and faster than ever!
Ninja Missile
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 26, 2003 10:33 AM
BIG motors for BIG boyz!
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted March 26, 2003 01:03 PM
Man.......siiiigh.......
SUCKSVILLE!!! Mayor >>>>>>>Bergie!
it is a good thing that at least there isn't a new hole in the side of the block. 
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted March 26, 2003 02:18 PM
could this be a burnt/bent valve?
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 28, 2003 10:11 PM
So what did you find out???
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted March 29, 2003 06:37 AM
Entropy,have you gotten your big motor running(and staying together)yet.
I'm gonna stay away from the bigblock untill they are a bit more reliable.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 29, 2003 11:21 AM
I'm building a BigBlock (when it get's here) NO stroke though...
I will be honest with my results and opinions...
I don't for-see any problems with it though...balanced, lightened, polished crank...cams and some head work is what it will be...
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted March 29, 2003 02:43 PM
Thanks kcady,i will be awaiting your results.
My crank is out to get balanced and was wondering if you new how long it to to get a 1270 kit from muzzys?do they usually have everything in stock?Would you know who has stock bore or big bore nitrous pistons readily available.I know MTC has nitrous pistons but they use a spacer head gasket and i'm looking for the reliability the stock gasket has shown.
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 29, 2003 04:49 PM
Muzzys will send the 1270 kit out the day it's ordered IF they have it in stock...
Our BigBlock will be shipped out to us Mon-Tue (so we were told)...
I don't know what's "readily available" in the way of NO2 pistons because I haven't asked (lately)...
I know Tony Lang at MTC and if he tells you his gask. will work...I would believe him... I need to call him Tue. about replacement pistons for an OLD 1170 kit (KZ)...I'll ask him what he has available for ZX12s (EVERYTHING) when I talk to him...
Did you read my post about your engine swap???
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted March 29, 2003 05:03 PM
Thanks kcadby,I am going to call Tony asap Monday morning and i agree with you that he is a standup guy and wouldn't sell a product unless he had major positive feedback from his racers.We have a local high preformance shop(Mongoose) that is a wiseco dealer and when we were in Gainesville the Wiseco rep there said they make a nos piston but they do not list it in there book.I'm shying away from MTC and the spacer plate because I'm thinking with the spacer plate i'll need adjustable cam sprockets??I'm on the edge of going bigbore with nos pistons and then just running one stage dry shot but i want the parts on the shelf.
I did not see your reply on the engine swap.I'll see if i can find that thread again
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 29, 2003 05:24 PM
It's the "running rich" thread...
I agree that you will need/want the cam sprokets with a spacer plate...
Why don't you go ahead and get the sprokets anyway
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Cowboy
Pro
Posts: 1061
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posted March 29, 2003 07:01 PM
What the hell its just money.lol.I have to go apply for another credit card.
I never thought changing cam timing would enough for stock bore??
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted March 29, 2003 09:40 PM
Running poor Berg's tragedy completely off target here, but, Cowboy and Kevin had me wondering if running two intake cams was still the ticket or not?
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fastestr1
Expert Class
Posts: 300
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posted April 10, 2003 10:33 AM
So what is causeing the bearings to go bad? We had a 12 go down on the dyno yesterday here in Hawaii, doing an all motor pass. But this one had a little knock!
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Black 02, 8.99 @ 161.95 motor on NOS
Put one knee down for the curves and both knees down for GOD
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