KZScott
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posted November 21, 2011 06:30 PM
ZX-11 motor build questions
Hoping to pick the brains of the experts here on some older stuff. local guy wants me to assemble a 93 motor for him. he has it stripped and so far he says he has it bored 3mm over. he wants the head cleaned up a bit and i believe there are oiling mods required on these bikes for drain back?
any tips would be great, i havent worked on the 11 before.
is there a place to download the FSM?
thx
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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oldkawboy
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posted November 21, 2011 07:32 PM
Hey Scott,
I had a '90 model that had 2nd gear issues & a '91 that was bullet-proof. I remember there was some oiling problems around #3 rod I believe, I never had any problems but remember some horror stories.
Doug Meyer would be the ZX11 guru out of everyone I know.
Dan
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zx12mark
Pro
Posts: 1654
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posted November 21, 2011 09:36 PM
yep kawasaki had 50% 2nd gear failures on the 90 and 91 c models.i bought my 91 new.gear dogs were too soft and not enough engagement.they would jump in and out of 2nd gear under normal driving conditions.it would scare the shit out of you if you were leaned over in a turn.mine went out a 800,16,000 and 25,000 miles. warranty each one.
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Shane661
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posted November 22, 2011 06:32 AM
http://kawasakiworld.com/zx-11/9523-zx-11-3-failures-interesting-westech-article.html
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 22, 2011 03:28 PM
thx for the link.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Ken 12r
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted November 22, 2011 04:47 PM
Huge amount of Zx11 information on here
http://www.bigbikeworld.com
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www.uklandspeedracingassociation.co.uk
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 22, 2011 06:38 PM
thx Ken, but:
Sorry, only members with sufficient permission can access this page.
Sorry, new registrations are currently suspended, please check back again later.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 22, 2011 08:23 PM
What is the bike going to be primarily used for?
3mm Over? I don't think so. All mine were 1mm (77mm bore) 2 is pushing it. Never 3, that would only leave 4mm between cylinders and sleeves way too thin.
Mine (Brenda's) is an 1140. +1mm bore, +3mm stroke. 205 hp in race trim.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted November 22, 2011 08:34 PM
daily driver with an occasional 1/4 race. I dont have the motor yet so Im going on what he told me. it may be 1 or 2mm over. He probly got mixed up as Im doing a 3mm 12 for him right now.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted November 23, 2011 05:33 AM
quote:
What is the bike going to be primarily used for?
3mm Over? I don't think so. All mine were 1mm (77mm bore) 2 is pushing it. Never 3, that would only leave 4mm between cylinders and sleeves way too thin.
Mine (Brenda's) is an 1140. +1mm bore, +3mm stroke. 205 hp in race trim.
Doug
205hp at the crank? Never seen a ZX11, ZZR1200, ZRX11 or 12 ever put down 200+ at the tire NA. My 1307 doesn't even make that much.
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted November 23, 2011 02:57 PM
Yes, that was corrected hp on a Stuska at the C/S with real good air. I was able to build low to mid 190's until the last combination which was 198 to 205 in 1999. In the late 80's I was doing my dynoing at Bob Wirths on his Schenk (Seal Level) and then when I moved to Muzzys I was able to use his Stuska until he switched over to the DJ.
That ZX-11 went 199.444 on The Salt with the usual 6000+ Density Altitude. I don't think I ever had that bike on a DJ. My bad for not specifying.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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dougmeyer
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moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 23, 2011 03:08 PM
Scott,
You might want to utilize a Terry Kizer (Mr. Turbo) supplemental main bearing oiler kit. I've never been convinced that it really does anything, but it can't hurt. The main thing is that a ZX-11 has less than optimum drain-back and oil level is critical. Tell him to NEVER EVER run the static engine oil lower than mid-window vertical and level. The only time I ever lost a bearing (and holed a case) on a ZX-11 running 5 miles at Bonneville (over more than 100 passes in 5 years) was when I was lowering the oil level to what I thought was a bare minimum amount to minimize windage. The Bike would blow out a few ounces on every pass, and I would drain and measure the contents of the catch can and replace exactly that amount. Over time, I got a bit behind and ran it low enough to grab a bubble knocked out a rod. I went back to a higher oil level and it never happened again.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 23, 2011 03:42 PM
I will look into the main oiler kit for him. do I need to add external lines to aid drain back, or just drill/port some internal passages?. i think he learned his lesson on oil level with his 12
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted November 24, 2011 07:16 PM
mine had a restricter on the head oil line feed and some jumper line i think down below. i never lost a rod or main and lost second gear at 14,000mi. cams were degreed around 100 and 99 for midrande. i never verifyed that though but it would go 139mph in the 1/4 without it being 30dedF
the standard dynojet jetkit with the head ported i ran a #136 to #134 main with a 50cc over bore. compression was 205psi and i needed to mix about 1gal of race gas (usually 100) to keep it from detonation and it would stop it for that tank and the next tank.
this bike for me was bullit proof. i had a very lot of runs on it> like my 12 i was that guy that would ride to maplegrove in the rain if i knew it was a good chance it would not rain there.
at 14,000 mi it started to brake second gear so dan from action machine made it a 1100 and ported the head stock valves and degreed the cams to his liking on a car dyno he made a jig to mount it to. after the redo at 14,000mi i raced it a ton more and put a nother 10,000miles on it feeding it race gas from time to time.
the guy i sold it to at 26,000 had the output shaft bearing fail. that made us take the engine apart. it was in great shape.
i recommend new trans output shaft bearings atleast.
if it is a d model change to a c model output shaft which is shorter and closer to the case bearing with the cupped sprocket the c models used. if not and a lot of abuse and power they can have output shaft issues because the longer shaft and flat sprocket is away from the bearing. if he wants a mellower engine maybe this is not needed but dan did it to toms 93d and his bike had a bit more stuff..
i loved my 92c model. put better front brakes on it though if it is a c model LOL.
tell him to refrain from doing long wheelies or he will be wiping the crank out a lot.
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted November 25, 2011 07:19 AM
quote:
I will look into the main oiler kit for him. do I need to add external lines to aid drain back, or just drill/port some internal passages?. i think he learned his lesson on oil level with his 12
I don't think there is an internal drain back passage on the 1100's. That is a big part of the problem. They added one on the 1200 motors.
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 26, 2011 08:34 AM
thx for the info guys
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted November 26, 2011 09:19 AM
I went digging...
quote:
The ZX-11 oiling "issue" has been flogged for many years and most "experts" had it all wrong. The short answer is oil level (or quantity). We learned that the ZX-11 has a tendancy to accumulate a lot of oil in the head. This can be as much as 2 quarts at high RPM. The bearings have no tolerance for zero oil pressure and you might imagine that with only a 3.5 liter capacity, if you accumulate 2 liters in the head you've only got 1.5 in the sump. It will tolerate that, BUT, if you get only a little low (1/2 liter) you will quickly run the pump pickup dry. This is avoided by the external oil drainback that we put on the right side of the cylinder head. This, along with careful attention to oil system needs (due to the addition of larger lines, coolers, etc.) has pretty much eliminated any bearing problems on the ZX-11. The ultimate solution on the cars (and our drag bikes) is the dry sump conversion which puts all the oil in an external tank with a pickup that can't un-port as well as a much larger capacity. A ZX-11 will not fail bearings as long as the pump gets oil. It's that simple.
Doug
Does anyone have pics of the oil drain line?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted November 27, 2011 05:55 PM
The drain lines were only used on the race car ZX-11's that always turned left. The drain-back problem was much worse on those because much of the drain-back is through the cam chain tower, which is on the right. The C-force kept the oil on the right side of the head where there was no place for it to go. It was research into that that provided the data on the amount of oil that could stack up in the head. If you keep the quantity correct and avoid long, show-off wheelies you don't need the right side hose on a bike. There was one other thing I did on the ZX-11 for the long runs at Bonneville that may have helped me avoid an oil problem, but I couldn't prove that (other than the fact that I didn't have a problem).
In an effort to keep the oil pickup wet, I figured it would be beneficial to direct the oil returning from the oil cooler loop directly to the area by the pickup so I built this little tube setup. In the picture you can also see the "Kizer" main bearing mod pipe to the #3 main.
The question about the sleeve vent notches in the thread that Karl kindly re-printed is: 25mm x 18mm
For the record, my opinion is that there are certain engine combinations that work far beyond expectations. They may not be the largest possible for the design, or the highest revving or the most exotic. They are just the right combination and per cc give the greatest power. 302 Small block Chev, 495 BB Chev, 426 Wedge Mopar come to mind and I think the 1140 ZX-11 was the absolute best size for what I believe is one of the greatest motorcycle engines ever sold.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
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posted November 27, 2011 07:33 PM
Thank you Doug!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
APE Jay
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted December 05, 2011 09:56 PM
Doug;
You still doing the airplane thing?
Jay
____________
http://www.aperaceparts.com/
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted December 06, 2011 08:03 PM
Yes, I am, Keeping me very busy, lots of fun. But I was going to call you soon. I'm doing an old Z-1this winter for a buddy in Wisconsin so I'll need all the usual stuff, piston kit, cams, etc..
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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APE Jay
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted December 08, 2011 09:33 PM
Ready when you are.
Jay
____________
http://www.aperaceparts.com/
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KZScott
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posted May 20, 2013 02:19 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 20 May 2013 22:21
bump, the mains are stamped 160 on 1&4, 158 on 2&3, it was stock motor with a pipe. now its 2mm over with a lightly ported head, stock cams at stock CLs, K&N air filter. go up a size or 2 on the jets then try it or just see if it likes the current settings?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
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moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted May 20, 2013 02:52 PM
Stock airbox right? I never found staggered jets to be required (there is no reason that they should be). What kind of pipe/muffler?
I'll look at some of my records on jetting. Needles are important. What kind of jet "kit" is in it?
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted May 24, 2013 09:25 PM
yes stock air box, it has a vance and hines ss2r pipe. not sure on kit, Ill have to double check
thanks!
btw did you get the email about the block?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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