zrexpilot
Expert Class
Posts: 470
|
posted August 29, 2010 06:28 PM
really sorry to hear that scott, looks like my motor did.
I am thinking it was my pan as well, homemade cut pan, ran fine for a while on motor during break in, but once I put the coals to it kaboom, thinking the skybound front wheel and the g,s it was pulling led to cavitation.
I been hanging low latley not even racing, I am bored with E/T, bike is back together with a stock motor, I just dont want to blow this one so I been looking for another to build with no luck, dont know which way I would go, dry sump seems the way, theres some HP to be found that way, maybe a coby pan.
Whats the verdict on swing pick ups, ya or nay
  
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 30, 2010 02:32 PM
swinging pickups have mixed verdicts.......
if you run one, i would have a roof on it........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 30, 2010 06:32 PM
i wont be building another motor for a long bike without a dry sump. this oil pan had a roof, lots of baffles ect ect. was fine at 1.42s, but on the pass that was probably going to be a 1.35 or so (hooked for 10, spun till second with a 1.40) it didnt seem to do its job. 2k for a dry sump, tank, lines ect seems like a lot till you price a new motor with all the big stuff....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted August 30, 2010 06:41 PM
Scott, how is your dad's holding up?
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted August 30, 2010 07:51 PM
its been fine so far, but he hasnt been much lower than a 1.42-1.43. his pan is a little different also but very very similar... we upped the gearing 1 tooth on the front when he started spraying it as he was running out of gear on the big end, and we havent got the 60 down that low since. high 1.4s low 1.5s. its bogging bad, but we are just taking baby steps with tuning it as hes getting more and more used to it.... just to throw a monkey wrench into things hes getting me to run it next wknd in a heads up "street" event. shortening it up a few in's and running dot tires. if i get in into the low 1.4s im stopping the clutch tune right there just incase... i have him talked into a dry sump this winter before(or maybe instead of) a big crank ect ect.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 31, 2010 04:29 AM
If pans were the deal here, I would have blown up this motor.
I went 7 passes at 1.37 this spring.......
But, I have a Coby Adams pan.
Dry sump is a great idea, but not sure if its needed........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted August 31, 2010 07:02 AM
Hi Scott, sorry to see this, got to looking back at pics . Question, did crank lock up, does it rotate, other rods , did it lose all bearings ? Is there any BLUEING of crank or rods, signs of extreme HEAT.?? Not from the fire .
I see in pics rod bolts, 1 broken at the threads , 1 in the oil pan , were are the NUTS ? 1 Nut may have come loose, letting cap separate, breaking other rod bolt ? Then all Hell breaks lose @ 11,000 plus..
RODS,CRANKS are the very best forgeings. Rod bolts are the WEAKEST part, if torque multible times they weaken. Heavier Pistons , Nitrous , Lots of passes, Plus street miles. Rod bolts stretch every time they are torqued !
First thing you do on car engine is replace rod bolts ,ARP , Been there done blow up ,after fresh rebuild ,10 passes, had rod bolt break at the NUT, stock chevy, chunked rod in the traps., found nut and cap in pan.
Just saying it MIGHT not be oil problem !! Ask some race engine builders if they replace bolts.
Go to Wallace Racing Calculaters , you can get your G-FORCES @ 60ft, Not as high as you might think .
____________
"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted August 31, 2010 12:46 PM
quote:
If pans were the deal here, I would have blown up this motor.
I went 7 passes at 1.37 this spring.......
But, I have a Coby Adams pan.
Dry sump is a great idea, but not sure if its needed........
how quick would i have gone if i hadnt of spun?
2 steppin at 6900 WOT, 72 in WB, way low up front, decent shock. big motor
hooked hard for 8-10 feet, then spun for the rest of first, back end did a little tokio drift, but manageable. :
1.40
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 31, 2010 12:49 PM
kawa has a good point.
i have spun 60 ft and done a 1.38.
so, not sure on how good it "could" have been........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 31, 2010 01:03 PM
quote:
Hi Scott, sorry to see this, got to looking back at pics . Question, did crank lock up, does it rotate, other rods , did it lose all bearings ? Is there any BLUEING of crank or rods, signs of extreme HEAT.?? Not from the fire .
I see in pics rod bolts, 1 broken at the threads , 1 in the oil pan , were are the NUTS ? 1 Nut may have come loose, letting cap separate, breaking other rod bolt ? Then all Hell breaks lose @ 11,000 plus..
RODS,CRANKS are the very best forgeings. Rod bolts are the WEAKEST part, if torque multible times they weaken. Heavier Pistons , Nitrous , Lots of passes, Plus street miles. Rod bolts stretch every time they are torqued !
First thing you do on car engine is replace rod bolts ,ARP , Been there done blow up ,after fresh rebuild ,10 passes, had rod bolt break at the NUT, stock chevy, chunked rod in the traps., found nut and cap in pan.
Just saying it MIGHT not be oil problem !! Ask some race engine builders if they replace bolts.
Go to Wallace Racing Calculaters , you can get your G-FORCES @ 60ft, Not as high as you might think .
crank didnt lock up, it spins fine, as do 1 and 2 rods(no signs of heat). #3 actually spins fine also, whats left of it.
the crank is very discoloured on #4 and has close to half of the outside main discoloured on one side.
these bolts and nuts were new. they were installed, and i had the rods sized. 1 tq. taken apart and put on the crank. tq #2. thats it.
these pistons are actually lighter than oem. these were new for this yr also, were properly fitted to the bore by Jim at Competition CNC. no nitrous on these. maybe 40 passes and 10 or so street miles?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 31, 2010 02:38 PM
Scott, how much actual rpm were you turning?
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 31, 2010 04:06 PM
on the 2 step or when?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 31, 2010 04:10 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 1 Sep 2010 00:16
Shit points...
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted August 31, 2010 04:15 PM
quote:
Shit points...
once in the moring, sometimes after supper....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 31, 2010 04:16 PM
LOL  ...Shift points....
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted August 31, 2010 04:19 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 1 Sep 2010 00:21
stock rev limit, with a bonny box to get 11,6 in 6th too. i planned on getting it raised/flashed, but decided against it with the cams. i usually try to shift at 12k on the tach which is really close to 11,6 on the log file
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Phantom13
Zone Head
Posts: 736
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posted August 31, 2010 05:11 PM
quote:
quote:
Shit points...
once in the moring, sometimes after supper....
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That definitely gets the Laugh of the Week Award as far as I'm concerned!
____________
"The only place Success comes
before Work is inside the Dictionary."
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
|
posted August 31, 2010 09:33 PM
yeah, for sure........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted September 01, 2010 09:35 AM
Now that's FUNNY !!
Don't think you have a OIL problem ! Just don't think you woufd have been able to get near 40 passes if it was sucking air ??
Ok : Follow the OIL, from pump, to filter , to main bearings , #1,2,3,4,, to rods,#1,2,3,4, if you had sucked any air @ 11,500 @ 193 rev per sec @ .005 sec per rev, it would have taken out MAINS first, #1 etc, down the line .
Ok : Now start BACKWARDS , loss of #4 rod , stress, bolts, nut,cap seperation, defect, or just BAD luck, causes GIANT pressure drop @ #4 rod, then #4 MAIN, to #3 etc on down .
THINK : how did that ROD cap and rod get off the crank without breaking , BOLTS or NUTS ??, breaking or coming lose?? Kawasaki mass produces 10 of thousands bolts and nuts , some BAD must get through, Crank and Rods are forged , Bolt an Nuts ,? don't know .
If was mine I would be looking for Very best ROD BOLTS i could find, ARP ,APE, Falicon ??
Tip, when torqueing, heads , mains , rods ,After Torqueing first time, i go through , starting in the Middle, holding torque wrench straight across, left to right and loosen till bolt is free, Keeping wrench on , usually 1/2 turn, then RETORQUE, it allways moves 1/8 to 1/4 turn FARTHER, @ same TORQUE reading ? Stretchs or reseats or stress releves , or something. , works for me .
PS : Rods can only live thru so many Stress Cycles of strectching, 55.4 Stroke@ 11,500= AVG 1688 Gs @ top an bottom ( 191 rev per sec ) of ever stroke= 3.71 lbs per gram x ( from your pics) 336 grams =1246.56 lbs per piston , unimageable forces, these # go UP with ever RPM, increase in STROKE or piston weight, Rods, Wrist PIns, and Crank all stretch, bend , twist,
Did you have enough squish, with stretch ? you won't it close, NO HITTING, I build with .040 to .045 min , a little wiggle room if I spin or miss, over rev ,, I read years ago Muzzy built with .028 squish with TITINUIM ROds. Not preaching here , just what i learned the HARD way, LOts of MISTAKES , $$
____________
"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 01, 2010 02:38 PM
Kawa,
With due respect to your careful and thoughtful analysis. This is an oiling issue. The melted bearing and blue rod gets that way after the bearing has been damaged. The clearance goes away in seconds, the bolts lose their tension and break, the cap or rod gets trapped between the crank and case and blammo. That's why the crank still spins. It all happens too fast to ruin the rest of the bearings and they still are getting oil as is the damaged bearing,after the launch G's subside but it's too late for that one.. The failure starts with a bubble of air in the system in the 60 ft which allows a bearing to make metal to metal contact and start to fail. It takes a few seconds to start to really do damage, maybe 5 or 6 seconds......
This is a predictable and sadly, a repeatable failure. The incidence of Kawasaki rod bolts or rods failing is almost nil. As long as there is oil pressure, it literally never happens.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 01, 2010 02:48 PM
quote:
Kawa,
With due respect to your careful and thoughtful analysis. This is an oiling issue. The melted bearing and blue rod gets that way after the bearing has been damaged. The clearance goes away in seconds, the bolts lose their tension and break, the cap or rod gets trapped between the crank and case and blammo. That's why the crank still spins. It all happens too fast to ruin the rest of the bearings and they still are getting oil as is the damaged bearing,after the launch G's subside but it's too late for that one.. The failure starts with a bubble of air in the system in the 60 ft which allows a bearing to make metal to metal contact and start to fail. It takes a few seconds to start to really do damage, maybe 5 or 6 seconds......
This is a predictable and sadly, a repeatable failure. The incidence of Kawasaki rod bolts or rods failing is almost nil. As long as there is oil pressure, it literally never happens.
Doug
Doug, do you think he might have unported the pick up on the initial launch?
Seems plausible. You wouldn't even need a "great" 60 ft. once you unport it, right?
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VincentHill
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Posts: 6520
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posted September 02, 2010 12:36 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 2 Sep 2010 20:40
Mr. Scott! Why does FUN have to be paid for? I watched you build this bike and saw that you tried to do everything right. It hurts me just to look and read! From my read there was steady accel ( with some tire slippage) then the Hook (Which is like a Spike on a smooth line) Like you and others I think that is exactly when the oil moved away from the Pick Up.
Like you say Dry Sump is expensive until you look at this , then it looks fairly cheap. Also at the rate of your development, you were at the edge of what any wet sump system could be expected to handle.
I have not touched my engine in 4 years! I have everything to put it back together correctly but allowed Everything I had set aside to race try to get caught up. The News is, it NEVER Happens. The closer you get to getting everything else done the more you find to do! (Other than the bike)! Take your time and wait for the good deals on what you need and then put it back together carefully.
Last, there is simply no way to deny that you were using Motul 300v OR some type of Motul Oil! I got a New Batch of e-tech 100 and it looked more like Prestone Antifreeze than anything I have ever seen. Also when Bear bought the Muzzy ZX12r Turbo bike and they were using Motul, the tech people tried to DQ them for using Antifreeze when it was Motul.
Good Luck in getting a serious deal on everything and really sorry to see what happened and You Done Good not to fall off!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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KZScott
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high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted September 02, 2010 02:16 PM
quote:
Doug, do you think he might have unported the pick up on the initial launch?
Seems plausible. You wouldn't even need a "great" 60 ft. once you unport it, right?
thats what I think happened, the first 8-10 feet felt like i was shot out of a cannon compared to my previous passes. i had made a minor suspension tweak from the previous race, and took out a few suspect clutch steels(nothing really major), so i think it hooked up far better then ever initally, but it was friday night and the track wasnt holding all of the big cars yet...
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted September 02, 2010 02:22 PM
quote:
Mr. Scott! Why does FUN have to be paid for? I watched you build this bike and saw that you tried to do everything right. It hurts me just to look and read! From my read there was steady accel ( with some tire slippage) then the Hook (Which is like a Spike on a smooth line) Like you and others I think that is exactly when the oil moved away from the Pick Up.
Like you say Dry Sump is expensive until you look at this , then it looks fairly cheap. Also at the rate of your development, you were at the edge of what any wet sump system could be expected to handle.
I have not touched my engine in 4 years! I have everything to put it back together correctly but allowed Everything I had set aside to race try to get caught up. The News is, it NEVER Happens. The closer you get to getting everything else done the more you find to do! (Other than the bike)! Take your time and wait for the good deals on what you need and then put it back together carefully.
Last, there is simply no way to deny that you were using Motul 300v OR some type of Motul Oil! I got a New Batch of e-tech 100 and it looked more like Prestone Antifreeze than anything I have ever seen. Also when Bear bought the Muzzy ZX12r Turbo bike and they were using Motul, the tech people tried to DQ them for using Antifreeze when it was Motul.
Good Luck in getting a serious deal on everything and really sorry to see what happened and You Done Good not to fall off!
right off the line there was hard accel, then a spin a few feet out. i think the oil tried to stay at the tree.
Motul 300V 10w40
Im taking some time away from my bike, but we'll be back better than ever. you can bet on it 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted September 03, 2010 07:16 AM
Right on Vince. Scott, you know Mad Mike had good results with the Accusump, a less expensive and effective alternative to a full dry sump. Ask him about it.
The oil tried to stay at the tree..... I love that
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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