Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted April 10, 2010 03:28 AM
quote:
quote:
Stock. Have an ignition module but any variance from stock dropped power on the dyno.
something goofy w/that result (as we have talked),
You'll see if there was detonation when you pull the head, look at the pistons (look for rough surface)
IMO opinion 98 octane is WAY more than required @ 14:1, if you maintain low/mid AF
I run 100-ish octane C-44 with 16:1+ CR with no problems, AF = 12-12.2
come on Randy, WTF is the delay, do the leakdown & pull the head, inquiring minds want to know! 
Karl and you wondered why I thought Pistons?
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
  
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted April 10, 2010 05:32 AM
I run 91 octane pump gas on 14:1 
12.7:1 A/F 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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KZScott
Needs a life
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Posts: 7235
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posted April 10, 2010 05:45 AM
quote:
I run 91 octane pump gas on 14:1
12.7:1 A/F
Psycho, you run really tight squish right? what kind of piston to cylinder clearance are you running? 1270 right? anything else in it?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted April 10, 2010 05:54 AM
I believe that Jim ran MRX01 at Loring, but I am not sure of the specifics of his motor.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 10, 2010 07:00 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Stock. Have an ignition module but any variance from stock dropped power on the dyno.
something goofy w/that result (as we have talked),
You'll see if there was detonation when you pull the head, look at the pistons (look for rough surface)
IMO opinion 98 octane is WAY more than required @ 14:1, if you maintain low/mid AF
I run 100-ish octane C-44 with 16:1+ CR with no problems, AF = 12-12.2
come on Randy, WTF is the delay, do the leakdown & pull the head, inquiring minds want to know!
Karl and you wondered why I thought Pistons?
Johnnie,
would you explain "why I thought pistons", i don't have a clue??????
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rtbain
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Posts: 244
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posted April 10, 2010 04:12 PM
The people I work for do not understand how important this problem is to the rest of the world. I'll be working straight through the weekend. Then I'll pull the pipe and TBs.
I want to run the leak down with a clean motor to learn. The tool is new to me, easy to use and very helpful in diagnosing the problem. The why is killing me.
Boy I hope Jim doesn't hear about this. He may want his head back.
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Randy
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KZScott
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posted April 10, 2010 04:31 PM
quote:
I believe that Jim ran MRX01 at Loring, but I am not sure of the specifics of his motor.
pretty sure it had 13.4:1 cr. dunno on squish?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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smokinZX14
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posted April 10, 2010 05:15 PM
I have never seen a ground strap just fall off a plug for no reason.. There has to be a cause like detonation. He doesn't know what his compression is .. He could be closer to 15.1 or higher ... Also you can't compair a zx12 to a zx14 ....What may work on a zx12 may not work on a zx14 .. He said the motor was running hot , now add 98 octane to that over heated head = detonation ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 11, 2010 03:00 AM
quote:
I have never seen a ground strap just fall off a plug for no reason.. There has to be a cause like detonation. He doesn't know what his compression is .. He could be closer to 15.1 or higher ... Also you can't compair a zx12 to a zx14 ....What may work on a zx12 may not work on a zx14 .. He said the motor was running hot , now add 98 octane to that over heated head = detonation ..
smokin': good point on Randy not knowing his CR, could be anything.
The headgasket was toast, bubbling into overflow. perhaps this was a part of the equation. chicken & egg situation?
In any event, one of the lessons here is NEVER fire up a race motor without having a very solid indication of its CR
Worrisome to me is the lack of response of the motor to timing changes; i'd want to get to the bottom of that before stressing the motor again.
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Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted April 11, 2010 04:04 AM
Karl anytime I see a plug like this it is either piston hit it ( piston problem) or it was hot enough to melt it off (ie. Melting piston)
why it did it? It took a long time on Gary's to fiqure it out but that EGT sensor was key
I am waiting on one for my DL-32
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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rtbain
Expert Class
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Posts: 244
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posted April 11, 2010 06:50 AM
Karl,
I agree. Not having built a motor in twenty years I relied on outside opinion without doing due diligence. Please don’t get me wrong, I got outstanding opinion and great machine work. But when you are building a race motor the final responsibilities are yours.
Lesson learned. The basics haven’t changed in the past twenty years, but the tools and monitoring equipment sure have.
Thanks to all for the open debate. As soon as time permits I’ll post the results of my adventure.
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Randy
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rtbain
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posted April 12, 2010 01:42 AM
Karl,
One more question. The bike did reposnd to timing changes. HP went down on both sides of stock. This tells me with that particular combination of engine set up and fuel, MRX01 the stock timing works best.
What am I missing?
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Randy
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 12, 2010 04:34 AM
what it tells me is that something is fishy, doesn't see right that you would magically land on the sweetspot for MRX01 & build config.
I have tried about 19 (nj) fuels and different motor configurations and all of em responded to timing advance
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rtbain
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posted April 12, 2010 05:59 AM
I agree it’s weird, but what could I change? The combustion chamber was reshaped and the squish tightened.
I'll flaunt my ignorance here. The amount of ignition advance required to obtain maximum power is an indicator of combustion efficiency. The only conclusion I can draw is the changes made the combustion process more efficient.
Dyno results showed a drop in power on both sides of stock. This tells me the ignition module was having an effect on timing.
Karl, you have the most advanced privateer development program that I have ever seen. If you have any ideas I am willing to try them.
If you have any ideas I am willing to try. Maybe a different fuel?
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Randy
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 12, 2010 06:06 AM
I don't know nuthin about nuthin', but I would want to measure that the advance was changing the way it was supposed to change as you made changes.
BTW: what method did you use to advance and retard the tiiming?
Maybe you are just lucky to have lucked into the sweetspot, but if so, yrs is the 1st motor of any configutation/fuel i have heard of which did benefit from ign advance.
I am WAY outa my league here, Doug or Chin or Jim better set me straight.
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rtbain
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Posts: 244
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posted April 12, 2010 06:57 AM
Yeah, but you know what doesn’t work! I use the PCIII ignition module. Was present as the dyno operator advanced and retarded the timing. Our combined conclusions were WTF?
The operator is a good one, you know him well.
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Randy
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entropy
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Posts: 8671
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posted April 12, 2010 07:01 AM
randy
i'm gonna call you.
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California Kid
Parking Attendant
Posts: 22
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posted April 16, 2010 11:00 PM
Randy ,
You could all ways buy a hayabusa . sorry.
Bill
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Texas in March- 199.166 MPH
Texas in Oct - 199.780
TexasMarch 2010 202.3
Loring in Aug- 207.837
Mojave march 2010 186.8
Sponsors : PMR Components , Tiger Racing ,NX Nitrous Express . Tuning by Johnnycheese Performance
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rtbain
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posted April 17, 2010 04:28 AM
Never give up!
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Randy
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rtbain
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posted May 01, 2010 02:50 PM
And the verdict is.... blown head gasket. Whew! From the looks of that plug I got scared.
Now, as long as I have the head off I might as well stroke it. The engine you sick puppies.
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Randy
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KZScott
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posted May 01, 2010 06:22 PM
we need pics
how big are you going?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rtbain
Expert Class
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Posts: 244
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posted May 02, 2010 03:47 AM
2X5. This time there will be pictures. Promise.
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Randy
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2010 09:29 AM
quote:
2X5. This time there will be pictures. Promise.
Are you shooting for Fall TX, or August Loring?
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rtbain
Expert Class
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posted May 02, 2010 10:02 AM
Fall TX. The build will eat up the Loring budget. 2300 miles is a long way.
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Randy
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2010 10:13 AM
quote:
Fall TX. The build will eat up the Loring budget. 2300 miles is a long way.
Cool. Good luck with it. 
Doing the work yourself this time?
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