rtbain
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old, fat and slow
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posted April 06, 2010 02:27 PM
 Edited By: rtbain on 6 Apr 2010 22:28
Why you need to pay attention to your data logger
When at the last Texas Mile my new engine performed well on the first day. Data logger had the AFR at 12.37 in top cog WFO. I pulled the card to look things over that night and did not take the time to put it back in the next day. Towards noon I noticed a lean surge about 2-3k. Moron that I am I ignored it. The bike continued to run well but began to overheat. It pulled a 193.5 (with a skinny guy pilot).
I finally parked it Sunday. The bike never missed a beat as far as I could tell but I never put the data logger chip back in.
Dreading the results I put off the leak down as long as I could.
1 – 30%
2 - 15%
3 – 30%
4 – 32%
The plugs tell me I allowed the bike to lean out and go into pre-ignition. Pictures below. Comments (other than what an idiot, I already know that) are welcome.
I'll post more when I pull the head.
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Randy
   
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Shane661
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posted April 06, 2010 02:42 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Apr 2010 22:44
Ouch. Not good. I wonder what went wrong? 12.3x is plenty rich enough. What kind of fuel were you running??
Did you melt the electrode off...or was there an interference issue? Also...no offense, but runnning on 3 cylinders should be very apparent at any rpm.
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JOHNJ
Novice Class
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posted April 06, 2010 03:01 PM
Looks like whatever cyl. that is went lean and burnt the tip off..(like ya don`t know)...Where that tip went is something else... Like Shane says,12.3 doesn`t seem too lean, but may have been ign. issues at some level.Plugs don`t really look lean from what I can see. Pistola`s, rings and cyl.`s will tell the rest of the story.
Sorry for the prob.`s.
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KZScott
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posted April 06, 2010 03:40 PM
damn 
where was it loosing the air during leak down?
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rtbain
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posted April 06, 2010 05:14 PM
You would think it would be lumpy but it wasn’t; idled smooth as glass. I only heard #2 blow out the exhaust pipe. The other three are either blowing out the intakes or very subtly out the exhaust.
The plan is to pull the pipe and throttle bodies and have a closer look. This is my first time diagnosing with a leakdown.
The bike was fine on the dyno. I suspect it may have developed a vacuum leak at some point. But if I had been diligent with my data logging I would have caught it.
I am hoping for good luck, maybe just a valve job and lesson learned.
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Randy
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Johnnycheese
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posted April 06, 2010 06:45 PM
don't feel too bad I didn't install mine till sat night and ended I was at 9.2:1 that is why it never pulled past 8K
got home leaned it out and what a ride I have.
as for yours I think piston more than valve.
but I have now learned DATA LOG EVER RUN
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Ozonkiller
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posted April 06, 2010 09:45 PM
Hey Randle,
I did use my data logger...
The air on Sunday was waaaaaay better than Saturday. Saturday, I was running basically the same map that I had used when I ran at Mojave, three weeks earlier.
I had to throw a ton more fuel at it on Sunday. So much that I ran out of injector on the E85.
Time for me to upgrade to the later model injectors or up the fuel pressure.
Still, if you were running 12.3 on Saturday, I really would be surprised that you went that lean unless you were spraying.
Are you running any ignition advance?
Hopefully the damage isn't too bad.
That's what you get for letting that old, Hayabusa explodin' midget ride your bike. 
Keep us informed
Tom Krause
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entropy
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posted April 06, 2010 11:20 PM
quote:
don't feel too bad I didn't install mine till sat night and ended I was at 9.2:1 that is why it never pulled past 8K
got home leaned it out and what a ride I have.
as for yours I think piston more than valve.
but I have now learned DATA LOG EVER RUN
JC,
what makes you think piston issues? and what type of issue?
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entropy
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posted April 06, 2010 11:25 PM
Edited By: entropy on 7 Apr 2010 07:29
quote:
The plan is to pull the pipe and throttle bodies and have a closer look. This is my first time diagnosing with a leakdown.
Randy,
good idea to redo the leakdown w/header & TB's off and listen carefully to which cyl is leaking, e.g. you may have HG issues and will hear #2 int/exh leak when you are testing #1
also look for bubbles in yr overflow during leakdown...
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rtbain
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posted April 07, 2010 01:53 AM
Edited By: rtbain on 7 Apr 2010 09:53
It begins to make sense. I was running 12.37AFR on Friday. I didn't watch the air on Saturday and Sunday just wanted to ride.
There were signs I chose to ignore, lean surge at idle, running hot but not serious. When the motor has been breathed on such indicators can’t be ignored.
That’s racing, lesson learned. I was gonna stroke the motor anyway, now I have a good excuse. As long as we have the hood up……. 
Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the suggestions in diagnostics. I will update this thread as information becomes available. Its only a failure if you don't learn.
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Randy
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Johnnycheese
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posted April 07, 2010 03:10 AM
Karl anytime I see a burnt electrode I think piston
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texanzone
Novice Class
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posted April 07, 2010 06:47 PM
Who are calling skinny lol,Randy I hate to hear this .But before you do a lot of motor work lower your bike that thing is a breast and will do a lot more than we saw. If I can help out any way let me know.
Mike
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rtbain
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posted April 08, 2010 01:59 AM
Well skinny is relative. The lowering is in process. I am scouting about for a short swing arm extension, about 2” as well.
What amazes me about the leak down results and the condition of the plugs is the engine was still pulling strong and idling smooth on shut down. Imagine what it can do healthy. Hopefully I caught the problem before any serious damage was done.
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Randy
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entropy
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posted April 08, 2010 03:23 AM
Randy,
I am 110% confident that your systematic approach to yr project will net you strong results; yr bike is a bear on the dyno and it WILL be a bear on the Mile. Keep inching up that ole learning curve!
Now get your TFA out to the garage, do the 2nd leakdown, then pull that motor!!!!
Karl
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VincentHill
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posted April 08, 2010 09:00 AM
For my 2 cents, the Plugs are not the Best plugs in the entire world because of only having 1 ground electrode and they look a little Warm to me like the heat range "9" where you should be using a #10 Heat range plug!
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rtbain
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posted April 09, 2010 02:07 AM
Thanks Karl, I'll never have the development program you have mustered but I do love building and learning, even when it hurts. While the machining will be farmed out I am back to assembling my own motors.
Before the headers come off I am marking them for the EGT sensors. Once bitten twice shy. And I’ll finally be logging more channels than you!
Details are still to be worked out but the wind tunnel is a go for July. WooHoo! Does breaking 200 in a tunnel count?
Vince,
Dadgummit you are probably right. I forgot about playing with heat ranges. A million years ago we would get the AFR right then start using colder range plugs until they fouled. Is that still a valid procedure?
The pre-ignition might have been from a too hot plug. Man I hate it when I have to relearn lessons!
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Randy
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lowflyer
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posted April 09, 2010 03:03 AM
Randy, I have some fairly short bolt on extensions for a -12. Not sure if they fit a 14, but you are welcome to try. Make you a great deal if they fit. Wind tunnel?? Cool! Tell us more, if it's not super secret. There are a few things I would like to try also. Us big boys gotta cheat the wind wherever we can! Don
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entropy
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posted April 09, 2010 07:24 AM
IMO plug heat range takes a WAY distant 2nd place to AF ratio in yr motor.
Your CR is not real high is it? 14-ish???
What was your cold cranking pressure, or even better, did you measure compression ratio?
On the EGT monitoring, deciphering EGT logs seems like a black art. No one I know of really got definitive info off of the EGT logs that helped them avoid a major issue.
If someone "out there" has solid experience avoiding issues using EGT info on a bike, please pipe up.
I did a buncha research a couple years on EGT monitoring for my bike and was talked out of it by several folk i really trust.
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rtbain
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posted April 09, 2010 04:54 PM
I agree about plug heat range being the root cause. I do wonder if it is a contributing factor.
CR is about 14. Since the pistons were milled I don't really know what the actual CR is. Never did a cold cranking test because I couldn't fit my compression gauge in the spark plug well. That will change as I modified my leak down to fit in the well. Now all I have to do is change fittings on the compression gauge. Its a process.
I am with you on the EGT being questionable value, but I already have the module so why not?
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Randy
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Shane661
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posted April 09, 2010 04:56 PM
What kind of fuel were you running?
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rtbain
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posted April 09, 2010 05:25 PM
VP - MRX01
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Randy
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Shane661
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posted April 09, 2010 05:29 PM
Timing??
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smokinZX14
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posted April 09, 2010 06:18 PM
quote:
VP - MRX01
VP - MRX01 is 98 octane .. If you are up in the 14.1 or better zone 98 is not going to cut it ... It might be fine for a qiuck dyno run or even a full 1/4 mile run BUT for a mile when you are boiling water in your head ...No way .. Looking at the threads on you plugs they don't look lean to me ..I tune using the threads on the plug .. I look for gray 3 threads up from the tip , yours is darker than i would run them ..I just don't think you are lean .. I think the heat and octane got you ...I bet money if you had had 110 or 112 you would still be riding the bike ..
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rtbain
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posted April 10, 2010 02:14 AM
Stock. Have an ignition module but any variance from stock dropped power on the dyno.
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Randy
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entropy
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posted April 10, 2010 03:01 AM
quote:
Stock. Have an ignition module but any variance from stock dropped power on the dyno.
something goofy w/that result (as we have talked),
You'll see if there was detonation when you pull the head, look at the pistons (look for rough surface)
IMO opinion 98 octane is WAY more than required @ 14:1, if you maintain low/mid AF
I run 100-ish octane C-44 with 16:1+ CR with no problems, AF = 12-12.2
come on Randy, WTF is the delay, do the leakdown & pull the head, inquiring minds want to know! 
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