Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 10:02 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Jan 2010 18:05
After some investigation, I have some questions about setting valve clearance, and where
to get shims.
1) Where do you guys get your shims?
2) What size increments do they come in?
I only ask about the size increments because the range of adjustment is listed as:
Exhaust .22 - .27 mm
Intake .15 - .20 mm
The shims I saw for sale only came in .05 mm increments. Since that is the entire range of adjustment, it would seem that you might often have to choose between the very loose end of spec, and the very tight end of spec. Seems less than ideal?
Shane
  
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06redzx14
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posted January 27, 2010 10:09 AM
I ordered mine from dennis kirk. it is the hot cams refil kit. 5 of each size in .5 incremets I think I have 2.40 2.45 2.50 2.55 2.60 don't remember how muh. the full hot cams kit is $75, but only includes 3 of each size
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 10:12 AM
Here are the ones I was looking at:
http://www.cyclebuy.com/shopping/hotcams/shimkits_948.htm
I think the full kit would be a waste because most of the shims are outside of our useable size range.
Still, is .05mm it, as far as size increments go?
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 27, 2010 10:12 AM
Edited By: entropy on 27 Jan 2010 18:15
i get .002" increment shims from HotCams
I get .001" increment shims from MRCycles, Honda CRF 450 9.5mm shims (Thanks to Tim Chin for that tip)
i think in thousandths
OEM valve clearance spec int: 0.006" - 0.009"
OEM valve clearance spec exh: 0.009" - 0.012"
You could get a set of HotCams shims e.g. 250, 255, 260, 265, 270, etc
then fill it in with 252, 257, 262, 267, etc
I warn you, you can drop a ton of money getting yr shim collection to the point where you have enough sizes and depth to ea size that you can reliably shim to .008 for example.
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 10:14 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Jan 2010 18:18
Thanks Karl, that is just the info I was looking for! 
ZX-14 clearance specs:
Intake (.0059 - .0079 in.)
Exhaust (.0087 - .0106 in.)
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06redzx14
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posted January 27, 2010 10:15 AM
you can probably find them in different increments just make sure they have the same diameter. it should be listed on the refill kit
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 10:40 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Jan 2010 18:40
I stumbled upon a complete 2008 cylinder head, undamaged:
This head included everything including the valve cover and intake boots. I paid $435 shipped for it, which was a decent deal. Everything looks good from what I can tell.
When I get done experimenting on the damaged head, I now have a good one to modify and test on the bike.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 10:58 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Jan 2010 18:59
A couple of general intake port measurements, to compare with Scott's:
Admittedly very rough measurements. But it does seem apparent that the port openings are smaller than those of the ZX-12R. I suppose this is to be expected with the smaller throttle bodies of the 14?
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 11:08 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 27 Jan 2010 20:53
.
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entropy
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posted January 27, 2010 11:08 AM
Edited By: entropy on 27 Jan 2010 19:10
quote:
Thanks Karl, that is just the info I was looking for!
ZX-14 clearance specs:
Intake (.0059 - .0079 in.)
Exhaust (.0087 - .0106 in.)
Shane,
it'll end up a format mess, but here is a cut n' paste of the data i record when i set up vavle lash
NEW head, set lash with new Megacycle 443/415 cams, Andy sunk seats min to clean them up
"Exhaust (8-1): target .011"" (used valves)
182 182 180 185 180 185 182 175 exh ave = 181, #1 exh was sunk .005"" (spec min req to clean it up)
.011 .011 .011 .011 .012 .011 .011 .011
note: Andy new tool: all valves protrude into cyl +/- .001"" wrt #1 "
"Intake (8-1): target .008"" (used valves) NOTE: these valves have flat face
.008 .009 .008 .008 .008 .008 .008 .008
180 172 188 188 180 175 182 172 int ave = 180, #1 int was sunk .005"" (spec min req to clean it up)
note: Andy new tool: ""all valves protrude into cyl +/- .001"" wrt #1"" "
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 05:19 PM
quote:
Shane,
it'll end up a format mess, but here is a cut n' paste of the data i record when i set up vavle lash
NEW head, set lash with new Megacycle 443/415 cams, Andy sunk seats min to clean them up
"Exhaust (8-1): target .011"" (used valves)
182 182 180 185 180 185 182 175 exh ave = 181, #1 exh was sunk .005"" (spec min req to clean it up)
.011 .011 .011 .011 .012 .011 .011 .011
note: Andy new tool: all valves protrude into cyl +/- .001"" wrt #1 "
"Intake (8-1): target .008"" (used valves) NOTE: these valves have flat face
.008 .009 .008 .008 .008 .008 .008 .008
180 172 188 188 180 175 182 172 int ave = 180, #1 int was sunk .005"" (spec min req to clean it up)
note: Andy new tool: ""all valves protrude into cyl +/- .001"" wrt #1"" "
Thanks for the insight into your methodology; I need to improve my note taking, for sure.
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 05:20 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jan 2010 01:27
Just checking over some small details.
Here is the gasket in the exhaust port:
I was looking for an obstruction from the copper gasket, but none was to be found.
Next I measured the I.D. of the gasket:
Finally, I placed the spigot in the port end, and as you can see, no obstruction:
I have already measured the I.D. of my exhaust. It is a little more than 1.42 inches, so it is not a flow obstruction either.Are there any obvious and easy improvements left on the exhaust side??
Next, a quick look at the intake boots reveals restriction:
There is definite mismatch between the intake boots and ports. What can you use to "massage" the boots? They appear to be a bit smaller than the port inlet.
Shane
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osti33
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posted January 27, 2010 05:39 PM
YOu can use anything on the boots. A fine file, dremel with a sanding drum, etc. Whatever you are comfortable with.
Also, that rubber dust gets EVERYWHERE.
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KZScott
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posted January 27, 2010 05:42 PM
looks like Karl has you cover for shims. I got my last ones from the honda dealership because of the larger selection. (thank you Karl and Tim) any 9.48mm diameter shim will fit. the hot cams shims are the cheapest ones, if you need those sizes get them, if you need inbetween get the honda oem. busa shims also fit, just look at the hot cams kit for a complete list  as per Karls advise i set mine at 8 and 11 thou. factory specs call for .0059 - .0094 and .0087 - .01200 for comparison
on the intake pic, i noticed you have the caliper shoved in a bit, on my head this makes a smaller reading due to the taper, so we could be comparing different areas of the port.
i port matched the rubber boots with a sanding drum on a dremmel, you have to have everything cool and take your time, if you see melt instead of it being sanded, stop and let it cool. i also did my factory velocity stacks, they had a big lip.
exhaust does look small, you may find gains by thinning the middle between the valves, but i dont know for sure, i just did a little bit to mine there, mostly matching it to the gasket, yours looks pretty good allready
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 27, 2010 05:51 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jan 2010 01:53
quote:
on the intake pic, i noticed you have the caliper shoved in a bit, on my head this makes a smaller reading due to the taper, so we could be comparing different areas of the port.
First measurement:
Re-measured, as far on the edge as I can seem to manage:
Looks to be in the ballpark, but a small change.
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 28, 2010 03:54 AM
quote:
YOu can use anything on the boots. A fine file, dremel with a sanding drum, etc. Whatever you are comfortable with.
Also, that rubber dust gets EVERYWHERE.
yup, rubber dust everywhere,
I just got my TRICK head from Jin and tonight or tomorrow will be matching the boots to the head (not much dust) and to the OS TB's (LOTSA dust).
This is one of the jobs i don't look forward to.
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Shane661
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posted January 28, 2010 08:16 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jan 2010 17:29
Here are some pictures of areas that I "think" might be less than ideal. Maybe some of you guys can comment?
Intake ports:
Casting marks need removed?:
Sharp casting edge around valve guide (also present on the exhaust side):
This next area is curious to me.
The port is quite a bit smaller in diameter than the valve seat, particularly on the outermost cylinders:
Here you can see how much of a "bump" this is:
It's not what I would call a smooth transition. Is this typical??
And, one question on the exhaust side:
Should these Kleen air ports be plugged in some way?
I don't see where that big hole is really going to help flow, but I'm not sure how much it would hurt it? It doesn't look very beneficial to me.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted January 28, 2010 09:53 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jan 2010 17:55
I took a few minutes to measure the valve diameters.
Intake:
Exhaust:
I don't know how these stack up compared to the 12R?
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 28, 2010 12:23 PM
valve size
ZX12 OEM valve size__ int = 33.39mm (1.315"); exh = 28.35mm (1.118")
"oversized" valves____ int = 34.39mm (1.354"); exh = 29.35mm (1.158")
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Shane661
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posted January 28, 2010 12:26 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 28 Jan 2010 20:26
It looks like pretty much the same valve area for the 12 and 14 then.
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KZScott
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posted January 28, 2010 01:23 PM
quote:
Here are some pictures of areas that I "think" might be less than ideal. Maybe some of you guys can comment?
Intake ports:
Casting marks need removed?:
i took them out on mine
Sharp casting edge around valve guide (also present on the exhaust side):
didnt really touch that area, some guys shave the guide down to match the port
This next area is curious to me.
The port is quite a bit smaller in diameter than the valve seat, particularly on the outermost cylinders:
machining for the seats meets the rough casting shape, definately blend this and make it a smooth transition
Here you can see how much of a "bump" this is:
It's not what I would call a smooth transition. Is this typical??
And, one question on the exhaust side:
Should these Kleen air ports be plugged in some way?
Jim told me not to really bother with them, some guys do weld them up, but im thinking that may be more for turbo builds?
I don't see where that big hole is really going to help flow, but I'm not sure how much it would hurt it? It doesn't look very beneficial to me.
Shane
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 28, 2010 01:47 PM
quote:
See how big the bump is? It's like the port doesn't even line up. Look at the port to the left in comparison.
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KZScott
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posted January 28, 2010 05:45 PM
mass produced, i guess that far off is acceptable? now if Jim did that I would assume the cnc was broken. something tells me he could fix that issue though . Im guessing going with bigger valves gives you room to get rid of errors in the casting like that?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 28, 2010 05:48 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 29 Jan 2010 01:49
I think it is an issue for the 14 heads in general. I suspect that they are all like that. There has been some talk about issues with the outer cylinders, and I think this may be part of it?
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Shane661
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posted January 30, 2010 11:45 AM
quote:
quote:
See how big the bump is? It's like the port doesn't even line up. Look at the port to the left in comparison.
Quoting Jim, about his new port design:
"With the over sized bronze seats we are able to addresses the short turn issues where there wasnt any material to work with on the outer most ports of cylinder's 1 and 4."
I wonder if this is the issue he was talking about?
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