ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted January 10, 2010 10:41 AM
quote:
Ti valves are available, but that's too rich for my blood.
It's like discovering the edge of the universe! I thought it didn't exist!!! 
  
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted January 10, 2010 10:42 AM
RE: resonance, I thought that was the reason for the dual springs, one for weight, one to dampen oscillations.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 10, 2010 10:53 AM
you did about a yr ago. i tried copying yr setup but failed to get good results on anything but the middle cylinders. was hoping for more pics to maybe unlock your secret for accurate and reproducible results 
does anyone make a lighter bucket?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 10, 2010 11:24 AM
middle cyl are all you need, eh?
i used to do all 8 valves, but results were so similar i only exh & int valves #4, #5 now.
those who are interested in seeing spring resonance do a utube search on Spintron.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 10, 2010 02:30 PM
so i dont need to do them all?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
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posted January 11, 2010 04:54 AM
Scott if I recall I have seen a Prostock bucket cross drilled. This would have to lighten it somewhat.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 11, 2010 05:09 AM
quote:
so i dont need to do them all?
that's up to you, but i did all so many times, and always got the same readings.
so i just set up #4,#5, shim & test em. Then set up the rest of the valves accordingly.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 11, 2010 05:21 AM
A couple of questions:
1) Why are you measuring the spring pressure? Is it to make sure the springs still have adequate pressure, or other? Or are you setting the spring pressures via shimming the springs or otherwise? Or both?
2) If you are testing only the two springs, are you assuming that the other 14 are fine?
I'm sure that I am missing the obvious here, but I've never done it. I am just trying to get an idea of the methodology.
I have a spring compressor on the way. 
Shane
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 11, 2010 06:21 AM
i test 2 intake and 2 exhaust and figure that they are representative of the others.
The testing/set up is to set the pressure via shims, and to watch to see if spring pressure drops with use.
My heads are typically cut .050" and seats sunk accordingly so i always need to shim my springs to get the seat pressure i want.
where are you sourcing the spring compressor?
I use a Kawasaki unit and it works pretty well.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 11, 2010 06:46 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Jan 2010 14:48
quote:
where are you sourcing the spring compressor?
I use a Kawasaki unit and it works pretty well.
I ordered a spring compressor kit from Schnitz. From what I can tell it is basically a big c-clamp and some various size windowed collars. It should be here in a day or two and I will post some pictures.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 11, 2010 07:01 AM
quote:
My heads are typically cut .050" and seats sunk accordingly so i always need to shim my springs to get the seat pressure i want.
When you say the head is "cut" .050, do you mean the surface of the head has been milled .050? And then, to maintain ptv clearance you have the seats sunk equally?
How would you normally set seat pressure? In other words, what if you want less pressure than the off-the-shelf spring has? Is there more than one way to accomplish this?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 11, 2010 08:08 AM
quote:
quote:
My heads are typically cut .050" and seats sunk accordingly so i always need to shim my springs to get the seat pressure i want.
When you say the head is "cut" .050, do you mean the surface of the head has been milled .050? And then, to maintain ptv clearance you have the seats sunk equally?
yes, more or less, complicated by what CL's i am tryting to get and what the valve pockets look like
How would you normally set seat pressure? In other words, what if you want less pressure than the off-the-shelf spring has? Is there more than one way to accomplish this?
i've never wanted less pressure
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 11, 2010 08:12 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 11 Jan 2010 16:14
Would it be accurate to say that that in general you would want the minimum spring pressure that is required in order to control the valves? Otherwise you are just wearing out parts and wasting hp, correct?
Perhaps it is a moot point. Maybe nobody would ever want to run less than 57-62 lbs of seat pressure, I don't really know.
I know you run big cams and rpm, so obviously you need a lot of pressure.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 11, 2010 10:20 AM
quote:
Would it be accurate to say that that in general you would want the minimum spring pressure that is required in order to control the valves? Otherwise you are just wearing out parts and wasting hp, correct?
.
That is the way i understand it.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted January 11, 2010 06:29 PM
Karl you really don't check all the springs? I'm surprised ,I mean I can guess it would be time consuming but I know you buy good stuff but certainly there are variances even with high dollar valve springs. I do recall a friend doing a set of heads for a 377 or 383 SBC and the guy didnt want to go for titanium retainers and he had a valve float issue. The motor floated the valves around 6200 rpm,I was skeptical that the retainers would impact the motor so much but the removal of mass from the valve train cured the issue.Are there any ways you can lighten the valve train other than titanium valves?? I have a friend that works for Air Flow research and he educated me in the downside of titanium valves which is the destruction that ensues after a valve failure. Can anyone weigh in on the downside of titanium valves other than cost?
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gs11ezrydr
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted January 11, 2010 07:21 PM
Well talking about valve spring compressors,I was wondering if any one has used the one that K&L Tools makes for 4MM-5.5MM valve stems.You just simply install the spring,retainer,and then position the keepers in place.Now place the valve keeper installer tool over the keepers and press down with a quick movement and click you hear the keepers fall in place and (done).This is a tool that Yamaha has sent to the dealers as a time saver once during a recall on some Ti dirt bike valves to try and meet flat rates since it was a warranty issue.Since then I have used it on 80-100 heads I think it is cool as *hit. It really works and stoped the fumbling and messing around with tiny little keepers inside a conventional type compressor.Now as far as heavy spring pressures not so desireable.It also came with a teflon spring remover that goes over the valve and then you hit it with a hammer and shocks the keppers out. Not quite as knifty.If you ever use this tool you will wonder why this wasn't invented ions ago..
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 12, 2010 12:30 AM
Edited By: entropy on 12 Jan 2010 08:31
quote:
Well talking about valve spring compressors,I was wondering if any one has used the one that K&L Tools makes for 4MM-5.5MM valve stems.You just simply install the spring,retainer,and then position the keepers in place.Now place the valve keeper installer tool over the keepers and press down with a quick movement and click you hear the keepers fall in place and (done).This is a tool that Yamaha has sent to the dealers as a time saver once during a recall on some Ti dirt bike valves to try and meet flat rates since it was a warranty issue.Since then I have used it on 80-100 heads I think it is cool as *hit. It really works and stoped the fumbling and messing around with tiny little keepers inside a conventional type compressor.Now as far as heavy spring pressures not so desireable.It also came with a teflon spring remover that goes over the valve and then you hit it with a hammer and shocks the keppers out. Not quite as knifty.If you ever use this tool you will wonder why this wasn't invented ions ago..
how about a picture of the KL tool?
the one below is all i could google-up.
http://www.samstagsales.com/klann.htm
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 12, 2010 12:40 AM
some tools in this Klann USA catalog which are WAY cool.
http://www.klann-online.de/Englisch/Produkte/Chapter_6.pdf
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 12, 2010 05:13 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Jan 2010 01:14
The spring compressor arrived today:
Nothing special; pretty much exactly what I expected. I am confident that I could make something more sturdy. But it works:
Pretty straightforward, it seems. I'll be taking the rest of the valve assemblies out tomorrow. Practice makes perfect, right?
Shane
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 12, 2010 05:19 PM
nothin too it eh
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted January 12, 2010 05:40 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Jan 2010 01:41
Here are some really basic questions:
Is this the valve seal?:
How is it removed and replaced?
Is this the valve guide?:
How is it removed and replaced?
Basics, I know.
Shane
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gs11ezrydr
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted January 12, 2010 05:59 PM
Pretty cool compressor,looks light weight and easy to handle,and keeps things out of the way.Looks like it will fit many sizes also. As far as the K&L tool picture I couldn,t get a pic. to download Sorry! I have the web site address www.klsupply.com.it is called the Kwik-Loader valve keeper tool set Part# 35-3568. Page 93. You can download the catalog there.And as far as the valve guides you have pictured they have all the installers,and removers,reamers,seat cutters,etc. that you might need when rebuilding any cyl heads.Also the catalog is filled with just about anything you might need when working on bikes from front to back.Shop Supplies,Lifts,Diagnostic equipment Etc.And even a decent supply of parts you can't find anywhere else.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 12, 2010 06:01 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 13 Jan 2010 02:03
green thing is the seal. (looks like the oem 12 seal). tiny pliers. toss it, get new or better yet, blue viton from Y2K. make sure you get the little wire ring or spring. do not grab the inside of the guide by mistake. to put a new one in, i put a new one on a valve, stick the stem in the top of the guide (the wrong side of the head) and slide the seal down the stem and onto the guide. they will sort of snap or click into place
guide is the piece sticking into the port, and has the seal on it on the bucket side.machine shop work. must get a valve job if guides are replaced. (i havent had any replaced yet, but if you do get bronze over the oem steel as they cool better. same for seats)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted January 12, 2010 06:18 PM
Becarefull not to scratch the bucket bores. When using thoise types of compressors you may want to use a cut 35mm film canister in there.
Do they still sell 35mm film?
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted January 12, 2010 07:16 PM
yes sir, that is your valve seal. usually, if you're not worried about reserving the old seals for back-ups, they can be removed (and in the process, destroyed) with needle-nose pliers. use caution as to not contact the guide, which you are also correct on referencing.
when installing guides, theres a few tool companies that make valve seal pullers/ installers, but i just put a lil motor oil on the inner lip of the seal, stick it to the end of my finger with oil, then press it on manually that way.. ensuring i go on without distorting the little steel wire ring at the bottom of the seal or tearing it.. takes VERY little effort to install. also takes little effort to destroy a seal.
the guides are pressed in. typically the head is heated.. now, i honestly don't know about pressing them out, but pressing them in, you want a hot head and cold seals. same deal for bores. usually a bore or sleeve is cut a few thousandths over what the cylinder diameter is, the jug is heated to 400*F for a while, the new sleeve pressed, allowed to cool, then remilled.
as Dr. Jim said, the bucket bore is so incredibly important to have perfect. should you scratch it, it'll need polished out..
never saw an answer about *not* using magnets on bucket removal.. i've always used a magnet. just, make sure its clean. i make sure as well it doesn't slam onto the bucket eother to avoid a divot in the bucket face. i use the magnet or a small magnetic screwdriver for keeper removal.
for reinstallation (something you will hate sometimes...) i use a zip-tie end or similar non-metallic piece with some grease on it. stick the keepers to the zip tie using the grease, then use you kickass uber motor skills to place the keeper in between retainer and valve stem.. then, use the non-greasy side to push it to the back and geab the other keeper and do the same thing.. get the pair in there and, making sure everything is centered, let the pressure off the valve tool.
one thing you'll have to do is make sure you compress the retainer far enough to actually get the keppers in there. they're tapered (at 7* i think??) and you'll need to compress the retainer another half the length of the keepers past where the normal seating position is.
cool fact.. not too sure if people still do this, but on older race motors, guys used to dril lthe tops of the valve guides to make oil pool at the top and facilitate cooling and lubrication. also evident by alot of blue smoke some engines make.. even tho they ran top-notch and were tight.. it depended on how crazy the guy got with the drill. little divot.. minute amountes of oil at the guide top.. apeshit crazy? lots of oil pooled and therefore more seepage past the guides into the chamber and ports.
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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