entropy
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posted January 08, 2010 05:24 AM
bucket sizes
OEM = 26.45mm
Busa = 28mm
Busa oversize = 28.5mm
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2010 05:27 AM
quote:
bucket sizes
OEM = 26.45mm
Busa = 28mm
Busa oversize = 28.5mm
I'm sure it is a very high precision operation to enlarge the buckets. I'd be interested in the costs associated, and when it is prudent.
Perhaps Jim will chime in...
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KZScott
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posted January 08, 2010 05:47 AM
My opinions are based on reading about how bearing life is negatively impacted by a magnetized crank for example. I don't really want little micro bits of metal sticking to moving parts. Am I being overly ocd?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2010 05:56 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jan 2010 13:57
quote:
hey shane got a question---- how was the heads casting? was it clean without any excess material? how were the ports?. --got a busaboy who says his head from a 08 was a mess, he was not impressed at all-- he was quite surprised he even mentioned it was nothing like the 12s head which i thought was very clean for a stock head. just curious i have a head for a 06 but i have not really inspected it yet. thanks shane.
I'll look at it more this weekend. I don't really have anything to compare it to...this is really the first cylinder head that I've inspected. I never looked at the one from my 12R when it was off of the bike.
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 08, 2010 06:22 AM
quote:
quote:
bucket sizes
OEM = 26.45mm
Busa = 28mm
Busa oversize = 28.5mm
I'm sure it is a very high precision operation to enlarge the buckets. I'd be interested in the costs associated, and when it is prudent.
Perhaps Jim will chime in...
Harry's machined parts in mass does a BEAUTIFUL job, not real expensive. ($300?? for all 16 buckets)
you only really need to do the intakes.
I saw excessive wear on a .415 lift intake cam with stock buckets.
with OS buckets my new 415 shows no wer whatever.
Wait till you price OEM Busa buckets, YIKES!!! something like $33 each!
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2010 06:47 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jan 2010 14:48
quote:
Wait till you price OEM Busa buckets, YIKES!!! something like $33 each!
Sounds cheaper to buy a whole used head!
I had heard of ZX-14's spitting shims with bigger cams. Looking at the design, I am not sure how this would happen with adequate spring pressure? The reasons I had read were: steep acceleration ramps with aftermarket cams, cam walk, and small buckets. I believe this info came from Coby Adams shop. What do you guys think?
I had thought of some very mild drop-in cams, but to be honest, I'm a little nervous! Is there anything about the 14's setup that would make it more susceptible to problems than the 12R?
Shane
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 08, 2010 10:22 AM
quote:
quote:
bucket sizes
OEM = 26.45mm
Busa = 28mm
Busa oversize = 28.5mm
I'm sure it is a very high precision operation to enlarge the buckets. I'd be interested in the costs associated, and when it is prudent.
Perhaps Jim will chime in...
We get $350-$400 to bore for 28mm o/s buckets.
It is VERY precision. The bucket clearances at room temp are .00011-.00013. I don't know what they are on a running engine... maybe .0016-.002" ??? I suppose I could heat the parts and measure but I just stay with the factory clearances.
The factory bucket bores are within .00005" or so. You cannot measure this stuff with a digital or dial caliper. You need a dial bore gauge that reads in at least .0001" increments.
And the temp of the head must be about 65-75 degrees. Buckets must be measured quickly before your hand heats the bucket up.
We use a VERY solid Nicken boring bar in the CNC machine. Its adjustment increment is .00001"
It has zero deflection and zero vibration and chatter so the surface finish is as good or better than factory. I take the boring bar out and look for stuck chip on the insert after every hole. Its crazy.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 08, 2010 10:29 AM
quote:
i have yes, but im trying to get away from magnetizing parts like this. you can get them out without magnets on a 12(you could try a small suction cup on the 14 :P). at my level i doubt it has any real effects, but its good practise
Scott I'd have to agree with you as far as leaving the crank or rods magnetized after magnafluxing.
That's a big no no. They collect magnetic particles and gather them and then let them go in clumps etc. Always demagnetize your parts after magnafluxing.
But I don't think using a small magnet on the buckets would impose much if any magnetism on the buckets.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 08, 2010 10:33 AM
quote:
quote:
Wait till you price OEM Busa buckets, YIKES!!! something like $33 each!
Sounds cheaper to buy a whole used head!
I had heard of ZX-14's spitting shims with bigger cams. Looking at the design, I am not sure how this would happen with adequate spring pressure? The reasons I had read were: steep acceleration ramps with aftermarket cams, cam walk, and small buckets. I believe this info came from Coby Adams shop. What do you guys think?
I had thought of some very mild drop-in cams, but to be honest, I'm a little nervous! Is there anything about the 14's setup that would make it more susceptible to problems than the 12R?
Shane
You need proper seat pressure to prevent the valves from bouncing. Once the valves start bouncing then the shims will pop right out. Good springs are a must.
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Shane661
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posted January 08, 2010 05:31 PM
Speaking of seat pressures, any thoughts on these two competing products?:
The APE parts seem nicer, but perhaps that is just good marketing?
Shane
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KZScott
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posted January 08, 2010 07:23 PM
been running on a set of carpenters for 2 seasons now
thx for the input Jim 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 09, 2010 05:06 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jan 2010 13:09
quote:
been running on a set of carpenters for 2 seasons now
Scott, have you measured spring pressure at various heights? If so, how much degradation of pressure have you noticed? Are your springs single or dual?
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KZScott
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posted January 09, 2010 10:03 AM
I have tried to measure seat pressure without the proper tools so i scrapped the idea and ran them the second season anyway. i was getting ok numbers, (high 50s low 60s) but very inconsistant results. the carpenter springs for a 12 are dual(supposed to be 65 pound seat pressure). not sure on the pros/cons of single, dual or triple.
whats everybody using these days to check out valve springs or clutch springs?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 09, 2010 10:09 AM
quote:
whats everybody using these days to check out valve springs or clutch springs?
digital bathroom scale, drill press, some pieces of wood.
very reproducible results, REAL easy.
I measure seat pressure (or full lift) with valves set up in the head
caution: when using yr wife's bathroom scale, don't use brake cleaner to clean oily finger prints off it...
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Shane661
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posted January 09, 2010 11:17 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jan 2010 19:19
This is what I bought to measure spring pressures:
$59 on Ebay, 0-300 psi range.
Obviously you need a press or clamp of some sort to make it work. I bought it for clutch springs, but it is actually sold as a tool for measuring valve spring pressure.
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 09, 2010 04:49 PM
hey Shane,
i bought one of those to measure valve springs but didn't like it's lack of precision, and that you can't measure the seat pressure as actually set up in the head. So I went to bathroom scale method.
Now i use that tool to check relief pressure on shimmed oil pressure relief valves.
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Shane661
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posted January 09, 2010 04:53 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Jan 2010 01:13
I can hardly get my bathroom scale (either of them) to measure the same thing twice! What kind of scale do you have?
Why can't you measure the seat pressure as set up in the head? Is it more complex than measuring the installed height? I'm a little confused as to how the bathroom scale and wood blocks would offer increased flexibility?
Is it the resolution of the scale that is the concern?
This graduations on this one are 5 psi each, but there is quite a bit of room between them. Some digital scale suggestions would be great.
Shane
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entropy
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posted January 10, 2010 06:27 AM
Shane,
With a lil jiggery-pokery you can have the digital bathroom scale thing set up easily.
Then you measure the seat pressure directly of whatever set up you have on the head.
measuring the installed height, then disassembling a valve to measure spring pressure drove me nuts, and was prone (for me) to mistakes.
.015" in spring height = 5# seat pressure (from memory).
Right now i am doing an experiment with 75# exh, 80# intake.
Each to their own, but i measure/note installed seat pressure every time the head is on the bench, and the bathroom scale thing works simply and repeatedly (to about 1-2#).
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Shane661
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posted January 10, 2010 06:39 AM
Karl, I saw you mention something about bent valves in another thread. Is that a recent development?
Do they make lighter valves for these motors?
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entropy
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posted January 10, 2010 07:54 AM
the bent valves come from revving to 12900, and yes it is a recent development.
My hp si still climbing at 12300-ish. i want to see where the motor runs outa breath, but valve train is failing at over 12500.
Ti valves are available, but that's too rich for my blood.
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Shane661
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posted January 10, 2010 07:58 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Jan 2010 16:01
So, the combination of the aggressive cams and high rpm is causing the valves to get out of control?
What is it that causes valves to bend, ultimately? Is it the relative mass of the valvetrain at maximum acceleration? If so, it doesn't seem like springs would help that.
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entropy
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posted January 10, 2010 08:06 AM
valve control at excessive rpm is a black art, not just valve train weight, but spring resonance.
What caused 'em to bend????????
They didn't hit the pistons, but int may have hit exhaust?? no obvious evidence.
Don Rickard, valve spring guru, is on the case, i'll see what he says on Monday.
Also, if the price is anywhere near doable, Jim has a Spintron connection. That would be cool.
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Shane661
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posted January 10, 2010 08:10 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Jan 2010 16:14
Resonance is something that I didn't think of. What is intriguing (to me) about that is the prospect of changing the resonant frequency of the assembly by using different weight retainers as well as valves, and of course springs.
Pretty complex stuff for a noob like me. I guess that is why it could be called a black art! 
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KZScott
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posted January 10, 2010 09:12 AM
would you mind snapping a few pics next time the head is on the scales? thats how i tried to do it, but it didnt really work out
are you using the "flat" valves or the ones with the dished out face? compared weights?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 10, 2010 09:33 AM
quote:
would you mind snapping a few pics next time the head is on the scales? thats how i tried to do it, but it didnt really work out
are you using the "flat" valves or the ones with the dished out face? compared weights?
i think i posted a pic of the bathroom scale set up quite a while ago, but maybe not. I'll do when i set up the Trick head Jim is making for me right now.
the dished vales are only a tiny bit lighter, but lose substantial CR. KWI is supped to be making a set of flat ones for me via Andy request.
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