Shane661
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posted December 31, 2009 02:45 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 31 Dec 2009 22:49
- Titanium Retainers? -
It seems that I often hear about Ti retainers being unreliable. Why is this?
Do you think it might be that they are usually used with big cams and springs, therefore making them more susceptible to wear/failure...or?? Are some keepers and retainers machined incorrectly? Is the Ti less durable?
I'd be interested in hearing the pros/cons. I may be putting heavier valve springs in my 14, and obviously that would be the time to consider new retainers.
Shane
  
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entropy
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posted December 31, 2009 03:31 PM
I have had no problems whatever with Ti retainers on my 12
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Shane661
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posted December 31, 2009 03:58 PM
quote:
I have had no problems whatever with Ti retainers on my 12
How long have you been using the same set?
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dougmeyer
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posted December 31, 2009 04:14 PM
Huh? Never heard that. Pretty much every race engine anywhere has 'em.
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Shane661
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posted December 31, 2009 04:18 PM
That's pretty interesting. In just the few years I have been around this stuff I have heard of plenty of "stories".
I guess I'm just lucky?
So, what makes them worth the cost?
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KZScott
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posted December 31, 2009 04:28 PM
Ive been told they can "wear funny" and are only for race motors, not street motors, Ive also been told to use them by other guys. 
they are lighter, require less spring pressure to keep the valves from floating
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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almost_les
Zone Head
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posted December 31, 2009 04:29 PM
less valvetrain mass. safer at higher rpms
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Shane661
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posted December 31, 2009 04:31 PM
quote:
Ive been told they can "wear funny" and are only for race motors
That's the kind of stuff I've heard. Plus the occasional loss of a retainer..with predictable results.
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almost_les
Zone Head
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posted December 31, 2009 04:31 PM
Edited By: almost_les on 1 Jan 2010 00:37
quote:
they are lighter, require less spring pressure to keep the valves from floating
dammit, why you gotta be posting the same time as me? 
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 01, 2010 07:18 AM
I've never seen a TI retainer fail. We have used them on hundreds of heads.
I think people might confuse another component failure for a retainer failure.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Shane661
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posted January 01, 2010 07:25 AM
Interesting. Here is post from SH.org:
quote:
i have a drawer full of junk ti-retainers (I.D.'s "wallered" out) ive taken out of street motors . make ya hell of a deal on em ! :lol: I swear by stockers...
Jay from APE replies:
quote:
We have been using a material for about a year that no longer does that. Was a sob to get tool to live in, but we got it to work.
Jay
So, it seems like some wear issues have occured in the past?
Shane
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Texas12R
Zone Head
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posted January 01, 2010 08:52 AM
I suppose one could have issues if the material was not "spec".
There is a difference in physical properties from one alloy to another....pehaps some retainers were
produced from a poor quality material run?
Thats why material used on military contracts must have "C of C''
certificate of conformance .....when you have chemical and physical analysis
the performance is usually very predictable.....
my .01 worth
I always reserve the right to be wrong
from the pics ive seen from Rgeorge im sure he could comment on this
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WRECKSHOP
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posted January 01, 2010 11:05 AM
Never had a problem with Ti-retainers on any of my race motors....
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ZXLNT
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posted January 02, 2010 12:27 PM
Had them in my street bike for 6-7 years now..
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Shane661
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posted January 02, 2010 12:29 PM
It seems like the feedback is overwhelmingly positive. I guess any time you hear hear APE saying that they corrected a wear issue, it makes you pay attention.
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KZScott
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posted January 02, 2010 01:07 PM
i might have to invest in some from the new inventory....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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SteddyTeddy
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posted January 02, 2010 04:10 PM
I picked up a set for a Busa a while back. They were wore funny and the shims fit loose.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 02, 2010 06:44 PM
There is no accounting for bad quality. Titanium does need to be machined properly, and it absolutely requires special tools, lubricants, and speeds when being machined. Improperly finished parts can gall if there is any relative movement between it and another part like a valve spring.
The most common alloy of Ti for parts like this is 6AL-4V, which is Ti alloyed with Aluminum and Vanadium. On parts like connecting rods and exhaust valves there are a couple of alloys that also add Iron and Molybdenum. I think I've only ever heard of maybe 6 different Ti alloys.
Forget the "stories" just buy name brand parts.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Shane661
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posted January 03, 2010 03:45 AM
quote:
Forget the "stories" just buy name brand parts.
Doug
I hear what you are saying, Doug...but I've never seen any "off-brand" Ti retainers.
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
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posted January 03, 2010 07:34 AM
Edited By: SteddyTeddy on 3 Jan 2010 15:35
Shane I haven't had a 14 retainer in my hands to weigh it to see how much lighter the Ti one's are. On the Busa's the Ti retainers are actually heavier than the stock Aluminum retainers. The stock retainers are about 4g each while the Ti's were 5 or 6 g each. I run the stock aluminum busa retainers on my ZRX engine as the stock steel retainers were 8g each. Cheap upgrade compaired to running the Ti retainers for me. Unless the Ti retainers are at least 1/2 the weight save your money, unless you just want the best and lightest you can get for your motor.
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capt10ed
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posted January 03, 2010 08:28 AM
How much lighter are Ti retainers compared to the stock 12 retainers?
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2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
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