entropy
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posted December 17, 2009 07:22 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 17 Dec 2009 16:37
quote:
It's my duty as a knight to experience a little peril.
i should have known you are a Monty Python fan, it fits.
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted December 17, 2009 07:26 AM
I think its getting smacked on the backside........
But, my mind is always in the gutter.........
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted December 17, 2009 11:29 AM
Haven'T been on here in a while.... lots of new threads..... not much time.....
Karl, because of the rpm's you are trying to spin the engine you are increasing the valve velocity and acceleration rate.
The net result is loss of valve/bucket control by the spring.
This in itself isn't always a bad thing. Lofting of the valves isn't anything new and some cams are designed to run like this. Its one way of increasing lift when the rules don't allow more lift.
The tricky part is controlling the lofting so the bucket comes back into contact smoothly.
Think of a ski jumper in the Olympics. Its all in the landing. Sometimes those guys come back into contact with mother earth very smoothly. Sometimes they have too much loft and slam back down.
Ideally for what were doing here you never want the bucket to leave the cam. But when the inertia exceeds the deceleration rate of the cam profile then you get lofting.
The fix is to change the lobe profile for a higher rpm usage. I'm not a lobe design expert but I think you need more duration to reduce the velocity for the rpm you are trying to rev to.
At Loring I ran the same cams and busa buckets. But I kept the rpm below 12,000.
I would keep the rpms below 12,200 until you get the lobes changed so they are more suitable for 13,000 rpm.
Ti valves will help the problem due to lowering the mass. And you would be able to reduce spring pressures to suit.
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aliveagain
Needs a life
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posted December 17, 2009 03:21 PM
I think we need to experiment a little farther.Send these cams my way and I'll try them in my motor to see if there is any difference.  Hey if I need the big buckets,well somethings just have to be for the sake of an experiment.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 17, 2009 06:04 PM
Karl the motor is big 1427 right?and in my mind would the bigger motor needed to be reved so high?I mean the more cubes makes it moot to want to raise the rpm ceiling. If the motor for instance will rev to 12,400 is it making substantially more power there than at 12,000 say? In reference to the Ti valves they are great until they break then look out for the carnage that will ensue..is it all worth it?
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted December 17, 2009 07:14 PM
Brooklyn,
HP= Torque x RPM / 5252
IF you can maintain the torque (or minimize the drop off) and increase the RPM, you get more power. It's that simple.
TFA is looking for every last effing horsepower. If you can't make the engine bigger, then you have to spin it faster.
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KZScott
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posted December 17, 2009 07:42 PM
could make it a 1484 http://www.muzzys.com/ZX-12_Cranks/index.html
its pretty much a prostock motor now right?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
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posted December 17, 2009 10:12 PM
OK Doug,I guess I am over simplifying it for myself, I was just thinking in my head that the motor may be at the edge either in camshaft or cylinder head and lastly durability..I mean I know Karl has gotten the motor to survive but is there a potential for that much more power? I guess I am a conservative thinker here and Karl is a crazy mofo when it comes to this shit. This is why my bike is stock and his isn't,
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted December 18, 2009 06:56 PM
Well, you're exactly right. Karl's motor is at the edge, maybe even went a little over so we're trying to move the edge a little further out. And, oh yeah, Karl's crazy.
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 18, 2009 08:29 PM
Edited By: BrooklynNYZX12 on 19 Dec 2009 04:34
Doug you are right,he is crazy but he has written an encyclopedia on the ZX12 without even knowing it. Over the years the experiments are really unbelievable only someone with a passion and some deep pockets can do what he has done. Kawasaki should thank him,the other big plus is that guys like yourself and Jim and Tc have all weighed in and make some of the stuff very easy to understand...even for a guy from Brooklyn. I look forward to all his posts and the replies that follow,still a great site here,Thanks Karl,Doug and tcchin for all your posts.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted December 18, 2009 10:42 PM
You're welcome Brooklyn. We're all having big fun here. Karl's one of the ringleaders, though.
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entropy
Moderator
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posted December 19, 2009 02:21 AM
Brooklyn,
Thanks for the props but to put things in perspective...
In 1967-1970 I roadraced a 1965 Norton Atlas, did some mods, never placed higher than 2nd in club races. There was no internet.
70's - 90's I was in school or living outa USA completely out of wrenching.
2000 i moved back to USA and lil by lil got back into wrenching.
These days I have/had the almost instant advice of Darkfalcon, Chin, Gilnack, Meyer, Osti, ZRX Dean (alphabetical order  ) and many, many others INCLUDING YOURSELF who get me thinking. Interested folks like you who are not elbow deep into the motor but ask innocent questions often prompt me to re-think and re-ask the experts. Everyone contributes whether they know it or not.
Our access to expertise is a marvel, no fukken shit.
Dumbass Al Gore said the internet is changing the world, and out of the mouth of dumbasses, truth sometimes comes.
I am driven, no, completely obsessed to take advantage of the smarts available to us.
Excuse the rant, I just did a leakdown after a good dyno (pushing 240hp) on my Miami motor.
#2,3,4 are GTG, but #1 cyl is at 10% thru the exhaust, FUCK!!!!!!
Pull the fukken motor!!!!
2 weeks till Miami.
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Phantom13
Zone Head
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posted December 19, 2009 04:42 AM
If anyone can get a motor back together in a pinch, it's you!
240rwhp eh? Damn, that's getting 'er dun!
Been feeding that thing arroz con frijoles negro or something? Lol
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted December 19, 2009 08:26 AM
240 on a weak # 1 hole.impressive!! You will get it done and we will be reading about about it...then you will bring the Garage Barbies out for some overtime...lol. Thats still some funny shit..Good Luck getting it right again it's great to see the 12's out there still.
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KZScott
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posted December 19, 2009 02:40 PM
what are you doing different to minimize valve float? slightly less rpm? (big cams are doing better?)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted December 19, 2009 05:09 PM
Nice Karl.
If it's not too late, after you take the cams out, but BEFORE you take the head off. roll the piston in #1 down to the bottom and take a brass or aluminum drift and give the offending exh buckets a rap with a hammer, allowing he valves to slam shut a few times. The re-check the leak rate on that cyl.
D.
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brendasue555
Expert Class
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posted December 19, 2009 05:59 PM
Go Karl, I sent you a little package to help you get er done! Be looking for it first of the week!
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ZRXDean
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posted December 19, 2009 09:50 PM
Pushing 240, hell yeah Karl!
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MadMike
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posted December 20, 2009 09:17 PM
Oh yea!!! 240!!! great Job Karl, and good luck in Miami...
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entropy
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posted December 20, 2009 11:36 PM
Edited By: entropy on 21 Dec 2009 07:39
"pushing 240" ain't quite 240, but close .
I wasn't at Andy's when he did the test (that's another story), but i told him to keep it below 12,200 for float considerations.
The seat pressure has been jacked up to int / exh = 80# / 68# which Carpenter says might prevent float.
In any event, i will not go past 12,400-ish until after Miami, IF, IF I have a motor for Miami.
The leaky head is one which had been sidelined for a long time bc valves sunk too far & milled so much. It was supposedly good when i took it off.
Anyway, I pulled the motor, did what Doug said (rapping the valves & re-do the leakdown), but got 10-11% again.
So off with head.
Filled #1 exh ports w/water, no leaks???
Filled em with alcohol, no leaks???
Then took compressed air and focused it on the valve/seat interface around the valve.
Badda-bing, a bunch bubbles up thru the alcohol on #1 exh port.
replaced the exh valve with a different one, still got bubbles.
looked very closed at #1 exh seat and found grooves from lapping a long time ago (before i knew to NOT lap precision cut seats).
Retire it again, maybe for good.
Sooo...
Back to my other raggedy head, used valves, cut retainers, 2001 vintage intake cam.
Note that Kibblewhite only sells "dished-face" OS ss valves for the 12 now.
My motor loses 0.7:1 CR with those bastids, which is why i am reaching into the junkyard dog parts bin for old flat valves.
Hopefully I'll put this motor together today, maybe do a lil experiment with exh cam.
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ZRXDean
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posted December 21, 2009 08:46 AM
I'm confused, is the head with the grooved seat the one that just made ~240hp?
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted December 21, 2009 11:41 AM
Can't you just dress or replace that one seat and call it done? No need to go back to Raggedy Head, Wimpy Cams, etc.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 21, 2009 12:04 PM
quote:
I'm confused, is the head with the grooved seat the one that just made ~240hp?
yup, that's the one. I for sure could have run it, but since Tim got me hooked on leakdowns, that 10% woulda nagged at me, and nagged at me
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entropy
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posted December 21, 2009 12:10 PM
Edited By: entropy on 21 Dec 2009 20:14
quote:
Can't you just dress or replace that one seat and call it done? No need to go back to Raggedy Head, Wimpy Cams, etc.
Could prob dress it with a cutter and will prob do it in Jan.
If I put a new seat, that could bring issues. The head has been skimmed/cut so much it doesn't have much left, valve/seat surfaces are touching the head surface and can't sink em more bc shims are already so thin I would have to go with both cams with cut base circles, on and on.
cams won't be too wimpy, just old 415 intake, gonna try something different on exh.
BTW, by mixing cams from different sets, and mixing valves from different sets, i found out something i didn't know (bc i pretty much avoided mixing before).
Different cam sets can have base circles which are enough different so show up in shims; ditto valve lengths.
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ZRXDean
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posted December 21, 2009 06:22 PM
Edited By: ZRXDean on 22 Dec 2009 02:37
You are one OCD mofo Karl.
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