Shane661
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posted December 16, 2009 07:04 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 16 Dec 2009 15:05
quote:
So, I guess what I am getting at is that the hardness of the lobes may be suspect.
The area of the marks would correspond to where the maximum pressure is exerted on the lobe, correct?
  
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 07:05 AM
quote:
I'll tell Santa you need Ti valves..... And a bucket of
100 dollar bills for the dyno.... 
by the way, I think last year, by this time you were on
build/ test # 30 something .... What # is the current
configuration
Michael, please use yr pull with Santa, I need it
since jan 1 of 08, i have had the motor on the bench 24 times, and on the dyno 54 times 
hopefully i'll get one more dyno session this year before going to Miami.
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 07:11 AM
quote:
quote:
So, I guess what I am getting at is that the hardness of the lobes may be suspect.
The area of the marks would correspond to where the maximum pressure is exerted on the lobe, correct?
actually no,
the advancing side of the lobes is pristene, it is the back side which is marked up.
BUT
these marks are very very subtle, I always wipe clean and inspect cam lobes upon removal and i didn't see anything until Donn said look at em undergood lighting and magnification.
I will not hesitate to use these cams again once i gain an understanding of parameters.
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Shane661
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posted December 16, 2009 07:19 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
So, I guess what I am getting at is that the hardness of the lobes may be suspect.
The area of the marks would correspond to where the maximum pressure is exerted on the lobe, correct?
actually no,
the advancing side of the lobes is pristene, it is the back side which is marked up.
Do you think that could be tied somehow to an oil film issue, as was discussed eariler?
I guess I am just picturing the lobe wiping away the oil.
As always, humor me since I don't build engines (yet).
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aliveagain
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posted December 16, 2009 08:18 AM
Entropy,were those cams made from stock cams and rewelded or are they made from scratch?Shouldn't there be a coating of some sort that protects the lobe?
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 08:31 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
So, I guess what I am getting at is that the hardness of the lobes may be suspect.
The area of the marks would correspond to where the maximum pressure is exerted on the lobe, correct?
actually no,
the advancing side of the lobes is pristene, it is the back side which is marked up.
Do you think that could be tied somehow to an oil film issue, as was discussed eariler?
I guess I am just picturing the lobe wiping away the oil.
As always, humor me since I don't build engines (yet).
nope i don't think that it is due to a film being wiped away, but i am not alot further up the learning curve than you are.
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 08:32 AM
quote:
Entropy,were those cams made from stock cams and rewelded or are they made from scratch?Shouldn't there be a coating of some sort that protects the lobe?
these are re-weld cams, and they arrive with some film sprayed on them but it lasts about 10 sec.
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Shane661
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posted December 16, 2009 08:37 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 16 Dec 2009 16:39
It's real interesting, since the highest stress area on the lobe is unmolested.
Since the material on the face is the same on both sides, I just don't see how it could get damaged without a lubrication isssue. You didn't change the oil type or weight did you?
Where is Jim during all of this?
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WRECKSHOP
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posted December 16, 2009 10:03 AM
Maybe a heat related issue or the quality of material used to reweld or regrind the cams ??? Just my .2cents....
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 10:04 AM
quote:
It's real interesting, since the highest stress area on the lobe is unmolested.
Since the material on the face is the same on both sides, I just don't see how it could get damaged without a lubrication isssue. You didn't change the oil type or weight did you?
Where is Jim during all of this?
a good possibility is that the valve is lofted / floats at high rpm and the cam loses contact with the bucket as it approaches/hits max lift, but as the cam rotates thru max lift, the bucket is forced back "up" towards the lobe and smacks it on the backside.
There are those who like a little "smacking on the backside" from time to time, but a that's a whole other discussion
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tcchin
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posted December 16, 2009 10:11 AM
And after the spanking...
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ZRXDean
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posted December 16, 2009 10:21 AM
So you're saying that the valve spring is holding the bucket against the lobe on the way open, but can't keep it tight on the way down, and makes those nicely spaced (spanking) marks on the backside. Is there is variation in spring weight that correlates with the variation in marks across the cylinders?
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 10:35 AM
Edited By: entropy on 16 Dec 2009 18:36
quote:
And after the spanking...
a cup of coffee of course!!!!
(you don't see many ads like this these days 
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 10:45 AM
Edited By: entropy on 16 Dec 2009 18:50
quote:
So you're saying that the valve spring is holding the bucket against the lobe on the way open, but can't keep it tight on the way down, and makes those nicely spaced (spanking) marks on the backside. Is there is variation in spring weight that correlates with the variation in marks across the cylinders?
Dean,
i don't know shit from shinola about this stuff, but it seems reasonable that at uber-high rpm the valve/spring could go into could go into some weird watusi-dance / float and or be lofted at max lift and the bucket lose contact with the cam. Then the cam could get spanked by the bucket as the bucket rises back to meet the cam.
spring weight variations?? I dunno. I only measure / set up seat pressure for #4 & #5 intake & exh valves, then set up the others the same.
It is intruiging that both dyno tests left Cyl #3 with a good leakdown even though the int cams were didderent 415 vs 443.
Again, until Donn or Doug or Jim or TChin makes a pronouncement, i'm just speculumating.
I had a feeling that when talk turned to spanking, Tim would get back into it
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Texas12R
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posted December 16, 2009 11:19 AM
Now that's funny....
The mass and velocity of the valve exceeds
the springs ability to maintain contact between the bucket
and the lobe....
Send your donations to
The Mo City Research Center
@ Mo RPM Explotation Investigation
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 11:46 AM
quote:
Send your donations to:
The Mo City Research Center & Spanking Clinic
@ Mo RPM Explotation Investigation
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!
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Shane661
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posted December 16, 2009 12:04 PM
Karl, have you asked any of the Busa motor guys? I imagine they have quite a bit of experience with big cams and spring combinations...
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2000redrocket
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posted December 16, 2009 12:44 PM
how about you parking it for a length of time and the buckets just happen to be resting just past max lift for a couple of days at close to max spring presure on bucket over time making a slight micron but not able to grab with fingernail mark when bucket stays there a while. i my self can not see at valve float that sort of nice arc with out it being forced into the metal and haveing it blured some like a drag down the lobe on the bounce.
just my thought.
ent so where is the leakdown air going on the worse cylinders? the valves like you think?
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 01:02 PM
quote:
Karl, have you asked any of the Busa motor guys? I imagine they have quite a bit of experience with big cams and spring combinations...
I have talked to busa guys, but no one is revving that high
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entropy
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posted December 16, 2009 01:08 PM
quote:
how about you parking it for a length of time and the buckets just happen to be resting just past max lift for a couple of days at close to max spring presure on bucket over time making a slight micron but not able to grab with fingernail mark when bucket stays there a while. i my self can not see at valve float that sort of nice arc with out it being forced into the metal and haveing it blured some like a drag down the lobe on the bounce.
just my thought.
ent so where is the leakdown air going on the worse cylinders? the valves like you think?
2000rr, i am with you on the arcs being too nice... it's a mystery
the bad leakdowns were 100% attributable to bad intake valves; stems were smooth in the guides but a bit bent at the face. Note that the tips of the intake valves above the collet grooves were all so mushroomed they had to be dremeled so we could get em out through the guides.
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osti33
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posted December 16, 2009 03:29 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 16 Dec 2009 23:30
quote:
a good possibility is that the valve is lofted / floats at high rpm and the cam loses contact with the bucket as it approaches/hits max lift, but as the cam rotates thru max lift, the bucket is forced back "up" towards the lobe and smacks it on the backside.
This thought makes the most sense to me. However, I'm about as far from an expert as you can get. Seems like maybe once you get to the point of float and the spring can no longer keep up the cam may be "throwing" the valve open instead of lifting/pushing it open. Then the bucket slaps back against the cam. I dunno.
You have the right guy working on it Karl. He'll get it sorted.
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KZScott
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posted December 16, 2009 03:35 PM
Karl, Im thinking that the heavier valve and heavier bucket are related to your valve float. Wolf said standard sized stuff was fine at 13000, however didnt have that huge of a cam, so his lighter stuff would definately not require as much spring pressure from the slower valve acceleration and mass(like Ryan put it, maybe your valve is being thrown open past max lift, or maybe just staying at max lift for that milisecond before coming back up and "catching back up" with the cam. are you trying the 80 pound springs next?(after the next mile). Maybe Ti in valves are must for this type of application. your exh cam looks fine im assuming?
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tcchin
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posted December 16, 2009 03:57 PM
quote:
quote:
And after the spanking...
a cup of coffee of course!!!!
http://www.textfiles.com/media/SCRIPTS/grail - do a text search for "after the spanking." Makes the cup of coffee option seem not so obvious.
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entropy
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posted December 17, 2009 12:05 AM
Edited By: entropy on 17 Dec 2009 08:06
quote:
quote:
quote:
And after the spanking...
a cup of coffee of course!!!!
http://www.textfiles.com/media/SCRIPTS/grail - do a text search for "after the spanking." Makes the cup of coffee option seem not so obvious.
Good one, Tim!!!!
been a while since i saw Holy Grail, but i don't remember this dialog:
GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking!
DINGO: You must spank her well. And after you have spanked her, you may deal with her as you like. And then, spank me.
AMAZING: And spank me.
STUNNER: And me.
LOVELY: And me.
DINGO: Yes, yes, you must give us all a good spanking!
GIRLS: A spanking! A spanking! There is going to be a spanking tonight!
DINGO: And after the spanking, the oral sex.
GIRLS: The oral sex! The oral sex!
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ZRXDean
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posted December 17, 2009 06:22 AM
It's my duty as a knight to experience a little peril.
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