entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 11, 2009 06:04 AM
AN fittings, making up hoses & such
I don't like where my adjustable fuel pressure regulator is located and i generally hate using hose clamps on my fuel lines.
so.......
I wanna buy the tools, fittings, materials to enable me to make up cool colored hoses with nifty AN fittings.
Any tips?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
  
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 11, 2009 08:50 AM
 Edited By: KZScott on 11 Dec 2009 16:53
a crimper wont be cheap(but that wont stop ya  ) . dad has one that he uses to make up hydraulic hoses for heavy machinery. the dies do go down small enough for bike sized stuff(i think -4 is the smallest on his setup), but eveything he uses is steel not aluminum so i dont know if he could make the pretty anodized stuff. its not a hard tool to use if you follow the instructions. just dont get you finger stuck in it 
if you are in a bind and dont have the required AN fitting before race day, a JIC fitting is the same thing only steel and are cheap at places that make up hydraulic hoses
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
|
posted December 11, 2009 11:05 AM
ent, i made hoses for my duster on both fuel systems. go buy the amount of braided line. i am thinking #6 or #8 is plenty big and go someware where you can actually look at the fittings to decide which style you need(dirt car shops should have all styles at least in PA that is the case). there are pipe to AN fittings if the regulator is threaded. when you decide what fittings you want ,take the mesured length and where you want to cut wrap it with the fiberglass reinforced packing tape tight to hold the braid, wide enough for you to cut through it and keep the tape on both sides of the cut to keep the braid tight. (only go around less than twice so it will fit into the fitting. then slide the sleave over the hose and oil the barb on the fitting and oil the threads the sleeve threads on to. push the hose on the barb all the way and thread the sleeve (with oiled threads) on till it is all the way in. then repete as nessary. catch me repeating oil the threads. it helps and if it goes on hard they will not gaul.
if you were close i would give you a piece of #6. if you give me a picture of the regulator and where you want to connect it maybe i can help more.
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 11:33 AM
Are you going to make teflon lines with stainless overbraid, rubber lines with stainless overbraid or rubber push-on lines? For fuel and oil, you don't need the pressure rating of a teflon line, so you can avoid the assembly hassle and flexibility issues by choosing one of the other two options.
If those nasty worm-drive hose clamps are all you're trying to avoid, you should look into using pinch-style hose clamps like McM #5435K14 and some quick disconnects like McM #5012K672.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 11, 2009 01:58 PM
Hold everything. You need three things, at a minimum, to do this stuff right, and almost NO ONE does.
Number one, and this is the big one. You need an abrasive cutoff saw. You can use a cutoff wheel on a high speed hand grinder but a chop saw is better if you can find one to use. The other two things are an Earl's Supply catalog and a Russel Catalog.
The only way to get a clean edge on braided line is with a tightly taped hose (like Red says) and an abrasive cut. Nothing else gives the kind of clean edge that it takes to do this right. The catalogs will tell you which product to use based on the application and show you all the possible combinations of fittings and ends. NEVER use a hose clamp on an AN line. The only other tools you will or may need are some soft jaws for your vise and a good set of fractional open end wrenches. You don't need to do any crimping or use any special tools. AN line plumbing is one of my favorite things to do and love looking at a nice job of "Aeroquip". I plumbed a Turbo big block race car once that used $10,000 worth of (real) Aeroquip on it.
BTW Anyone know what "AN" means?
I'm happy to answer any specifics. ANYTHING to get you to get that Bubba piece of brass pipe off of there!
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted December 11, 2009 02:23 PM
Army-Navy
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted December 11, 2009 02:26 PM
copy paste job
The AN thread is a particular type of fitting used to connect flexible hoses and rigid metal tubing that carry fluid. It is a US military-derived specification stemming from a joint standard agreed upon by the Army and Navy, hence AN. The standard is sometimes mistakenly referred to as "Air Force-Navy", but it dates back to World War Two, before there was a separate US Air Force.
AN sizes range from -2 (dash two) to -32 in irregular steps, with each step equating to the OD (outside diameter) of the tubing in 1/16" increments. Therefore, a -8 AN size would be equal to 1/2" OD tube (8 x 1/16 = 1/2). However, this system does not specify the ID (inside diameter) of the tubing because the tube wall can vary in thickness. Each AN size also uses its own standard thread size.
AN fittings are a flare fitting, using 37° flared tubing to form a metal-metal seal. They are similar to other 37° flared fittings, such as JIC fittings, which is their industrial variant. The two are interchangeable in theory, though this is typically not recommended due to the exacting specifications and demands of the aerospace industry. The differences between them relate to thread class (how tight a fit the threads are) and the metals used.
Note that 37° AN and 45° SAE fittings and tooling are not interchangeable due to the different flaring angles. Mixing them can cause leakage at the flare.
|
Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
|
posted December 11, 2009 02:37 PM
http://www.aerocomfittings.com/AEROCOM%20Aerospace%20Fluid%20Connectors.pdf
im sure there are better files out there
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 11, 2009 02:39 PM
Well Done! Army Navy Specs for all common hardware, set up in the '30's
Hey I just remembered I have a picture of the AN line intensiveTurbo Shadow, complete with a 1973 version of Doug Meyer......
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted December 11, 2009 03:09 PM
sweet performance.com
my brother-in-law
Dave
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 04:08 PM
AN is the specification for the threaded ends of the fittings. Many companies make AN fittings with barbed ends to accept flexible tubing, which use clamps to retain the tubing. Since this is a low-pressure application, you can use just about whatever you want, as long as everything you use is rated to at least double your working pressure.
One item of critical importance is that you ensure that your components are all designed to work with one another. For example, I prefer the Goodridge 600-series teflon hose, but its slightly different OD means that it's not recommended for use with fittings hose ends other than those made by Goodridge. That means that I usually have to settle for Earl's Speedflex hose, as Earl's hose ends are much more available than Goodridge hose ends. That, and Earl's was willing to let me open a racer's account at their retail store (with Saturday hours!), whereas Goodridge was not. That being said, you should check out the Goodridge catalog here: http://goodridge.net/content/GoodridgeCat_low.pdf
|
LandspeedLarry
Expert Class
Posts: 234
|
posted December 11, 2009 04:09 PM
Braided aircraft hose is so yesterday. Pro drag cars stopped using it a number of years ago. Check out Earls "Pro Lite" hose; far lighter (a ProStock car can save 40#), can be cut with scissors and the ends (same as braided) can be installed by hand with only wrenches ( you do use the aluminum ones don't you?). Far more flexible also. Sorry, only comes in black. LSL
____________
Home of the World's Fastest Naturally Aspirated motorcycles.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 11, 2009 05:27 PM
Not so Tim. There are AN specs for nearly every piece of hardware used in Mil-spec assemblies.
Larry is correct about the Pro Lite, you will see it in the catalog that you are going to get. Not a fan of Goodridge not common enough.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 06:43 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 12 Dec 2009 02:48
quote:
Not so Tim. There are AN specs for nearly every piece of hardware used in Mil-spec assemblies.
Larry is correct about the Pro Lite, you will see it in the catalog that you are going to get. Not a fan of Goodridge not common enough.
Doug - I agree that the AN specification encompasses much more than just hose ends. The point that I fumbled to make is that there are hose ends that are AN threaded on one end and non-AN barbed on the other that require clamps for retention (e.g., Earl's Super-Stock and Earl's Pro-Lite hose with Auto-Mate hose ends and Econ-O-Fit clamps). These hose ends use elastomeric tubing and are suitable for low-pressure applications. Russell Twist-Lok hose ends and other push-on styles with an AN end and a proprietary barbed end do not require a retention clamp. These hose assemblies are still (perhaps erroneously) classified as AN lines.
True, Goodridge is not very common, but it is very high quality stuff. I would use it all the time if I could afford it, and if I wasn't always under some kind of time constraint. Earl's is much more convenient and affordable at the expense of quality to a slight degree.
|
rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
|
posted December 11, 2009 08:41 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 12 Dec 2009 04:43
Most of the braided "racing" hoses available are inferior to SAE 30R9 hose used on barbed fittings with clamps. The rubber used in the cheap "racing" hoses does not have to meet any standards or specs or testing requirements.
Hose on barbed fitting with clamp is not a good choice just because of serviceability. After having it apart a few times you will have a less reliable seal. Brass pipe fittings are even worse. AN fittings can be disassembled and reassembled hundreds of times without a loss of reliability.
Teflon hose with AN fittings is the way to go if you don't want to worry about your fuel eating the lines and you need it to be easily serviceable.
I use Earls Speed Flex -6 for the entire fuel system on my bike. Anything other than straight fittings was on backorder when I ordered components from Summit in June.
I'll see if I can find some pics.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 11, 2009 09:20 PM
how do you put an end on a braided line without a crimper???
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 10:04 PM
There's a compression ferrule that gets swaged onto the teflon inner tube when the nut is tightened onto the fitting body. The ferrule is then trapped between the concave inner but surface and the fitting body.
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 10:14 PM
quote:
Most of the braided "racing" hoses available are inferior to SAE 30R9 hose used on barbed fittings with clamps. The rubber used in the cheap "racing" hoses does not have to meet any standards or specs or testing requirements.
Hose on barbed fitting with clamp is not a good choice just because of serviceability. After having it apart a few times you will have a less reliable seal. Brass pipe fittings are even worse. AN fittings can be disassembled and reassembled hundreds of times without a loss of reliability.
Teflon hose with AN fittings is the way to go if you don't want to worry about your fuel eating the lines and you need it to be easily serviceable.
I've had good luck with the SAE J30R3 medium-pressure fuel transfer hose. It's good to 225psi in 3/8" hose (same as -6AN), so it's suitable for most fuel injection systems. I use Colder Products quick disconnect fittings to address the serviceability issue by eliminating the need to remove the hose from its fitting - this moves the disconnect point to the middle of the line instead of the end.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 11, 2009 10:32 PM
quote:
There's a compression ferrule that gets swaged onto the teflon inner tube when the nut is tightened onto the fitting body. The ferrule is then trapped between the concave inner but surface and the fitting body.
and are these suitable for nitrous lines?
thanks!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted December 11, 2009 10:48 PM
They have the same pressure ratings as the swaged hose assemblies (6000+ psi for -2, 4000+ psi for -3 and -4).
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 12, 2009 06:14 AM
WOW!!!
I get busy for a day and this thread grew legs.
I have to load up for the dyno, but will digest all the cool info later on.
Doug,
you will be happy to know that when i mounted the adj FPR, i took off the Marren fuel pressure pulse damper and associated "Bubba" brass fittings . I now log fuel pressure and the pulses seem to be gone. It must have been the OEM FPR was defective.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted December 12, 2009 06:41 AM
That's good news. I couldn't get that brass pipe outa' my mind.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
|
posted December 12, 2009 09:29 AM
Edited By: rgeorge on 12 Dec 2009 17:30
Karl I found pics of some hose assemblies I did in June.
I use an abrasive cutoff wheel to cut the hose. Nice clean cut after the tape is removed. Make sure the compression nut is installed on the line first.
Then use a pick to spread the end of the stainless braid. Dont scratch the teflon.
Install the ferrule on over the teflon.
slide the fitting into the hose and tighten.
Then hide all the the shiny stainless with ugly fire-sleeve.
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted December 12, 2009 04:25 PM
thanks for the pics Rob. it all makes sense now
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted December 13, 2009 01:42 AM
Rob, great pix!
How flexible is that teflon hose, and where to get the the fire sleeves?
LSLarry,
great to see you peeking in this site!!!
Earl's Pro-Lite looks great, basic black is fine with me. Seems like it is very flexible, eh?
Thanks to you guys, this has trurned into a great thread on an issue which really hasn't been covered before.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC