entropy
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posted November 06, 2009 09:35 AM
i finally figured out what work is for!
going to work every day is to kill time waiting for parts to arrive, yup, that's what it's for.
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 09:37 AM
What new parts, Karl?
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entropy
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posted November 06, 2009 09:45 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 6 Nov 2009 17:46
RidgeRacer is flashing an ECU which was already modded by DaveO.
I wanna hear my motor at 13250 
I might not be hearing it for too long...
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 09:49 AM
Expecting ring-sealing issues?
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osti33
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posted November 06, 2009 11:08 AM
quote:
going to work every day is to kill time waiting for parts to arrive, yup, that's what it's for.
I agree!
Is it bad that the UPS guy and I are on a first name basis? He is here pretty much everyday.
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capt10ed
Expert Class
Posts: 327
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posted November 06, 2009 12:06 PM
quote:
RidgeRacer is flashing an ECU which was already modded by DaveO.
I wanna hear my motor at 13250
I might not be hearing it for too long...
But don't you have a big block?
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2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
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KZScott
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posted November 06, 2009 12:11 PM
you can make the big stroker live Karl
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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NINJA12
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posted November 06, 2009 01:13 PM
My daughter asked if we were going broke, no FEDEX or UPS man for about 2 months. LOL
Karl you are only going to run in for 1 month before the next rebuild.
It will live atleast that long.
Where did you find the lost HP?
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 06, 2009 01:50 PM
Last winter/spring was a ridiculous time for the UPS/Fedex guys around here. I'm going to have to take care of them at Christmas! Looks like I'll have to purchase a few gift cards.
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Johnnycheese
Pro
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posted November 06, 2009 02:02 PM
I though work was so I had time to make phone calls and appointments
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 06, 2009 11:35 PM
Shane - i wouldn't know a ring sealing issue if it bit me in the ass, gimme a hint how i would detect it???
capt 10 - yep its a 1427, theoretically i shouldn't be revvving it so high bc of piston speed related issues
scott - i'm not doing anything special to make it live other than having my wife pray for it
gerard - i haven't found all that lost hp, but getting close; it just seems to want more rpm... you gonna make it down to Texas in March??
bottom line is i like experiments
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NINJA12
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posted November 07, 2009 05:47 AM
Can you move the HP lower with the cams, without more RPMs?
I'd be concerned about almost anyone EXCEPT YOU turning a big block that high.
What are the dates for March.
I'll put it on my calendar.
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Shane661
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posted November 07, 2009 06:04 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Nov 2009 14:23
quote:
Shane - i wouldn't know a ring sealing issue if it bit me in the ass, gimme a hint how i would detect it???
I'm thinking excessive blow by, high oil consumption....loss of power and blowing smoke at high rpm? I am sure you would see some sign.
I thought that the possibilty of ring a sealing issue at very high piston speeds was well known?
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Shane661
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posted November 07, 2009 06:08 AM
Jim's old post:
quote:
Well with all the talk lately about raising the rpm limits of the zx12r engine I thought I would post some numbers that may or may not scare you.
Max piston velocity....
should not exceed 4500 feet per minute or 51.1 mph for sustained rpm racing and drag engines can live with higher piston speeds with gas ported pistons. Ring seal is the issue here. The highest piston speed is at 50% cylinder volume and thats at 83 degrees ATDC on the stock zx12r and 82.7 degrees with a 60mm stroke.
55.4mm stroke 11,600 rpm 4026.6 fpm
60mm stroke 11,600 rpm 4360.4 fpm
55.4mm stroke 13,000 rpm 4512.6 fpm
60mm stroke 12,000 rpm 4511.0 fpm
Max piston acceleration...
should not exceed 150,000 feet per second or 4658.4 times G.
At 150,000 fps a 1 pound piston and a 2 pound rod would load the rod bolts at valve overlap TDC with 13,975.2 pounds of tension. Max piston acceleration is at TDC and BDC.
55.4mm stroke 11,600 rpm 128,505.2 fps
60mm stroke 11,600 rpm 134,068.2 fps
55.4mm stroke 12,500 rpm 149,219.2 fps
60mm stroke 12,250 rpm 149,514.0 fps
So..... stock stroke and stock length rods, when above 13,000 rpms will most likely need gas ported pistons. And to rev above 12,500 rpms you should have carillos.
And a 60mm stroke and stock length rods will most likely need gas ported pistons above 12,000 rpms. And to rev a 60mm stroke 12r above 12,250 rpms you should have carillos.
Also, this is all subject to how long you want the engine to last. Running an engine on a continuous basis at these extremes wears the engine out a lot quicker as you would expect.
Are your pistons gas ported and all of that good stuff?
Shane
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entropy
Moderator
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posted November 07, 2009 06:26 AM
quote:
Can you move the HP lower with the cams, without more RPMs?
I'd be concerned about almost anyone EXCEPT YOU turning a big block that high.
What are the dates for March.
I'll put it on my calendar.
March dates haven't been set yet, but will likely be 3rd weekend.
I'll let you know when the dates are set. It would be great to pry you outa beautiful memphis for a weekend!
My motor likes lo cam CL's like 102/102, which would move power down a bit, but i can't get there with this set up. I am at 104/105 and PTV is getting squeaky as it is.
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entropy
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posted November 07, 2009 06:28 AM
quote:
Jim's old post:
quote:
Well with all the talk lately about raising the rpm limits of the zx12r engine I thought I would post some numbers that may or may not scare you.
Max piston velocity....
should not exceed 4500 feet per minute or 51.1 mph for sustained rpm racing and drag engines can live with higher piston speeds with gas ported pistons. Ring seal is the issue here. The highest piston speed is at 50% cylinder volume and thats at 83 degrees ATDC on the stock zx12r and 82.7 degrees with a 60mm stroke.
55.4mm stroke 11,600 rpm 4026.6 fpm
60mm stroke 11,600 rpm 4360.4 fpm
55.4mm stroke 13,000 rpm 4512.6 fpm
60mm stroke 12,000 rpm 4511.0 fpm
Max piston acceleration...
should not exceed 150,000 feet per second or 4658.4 times G.
At 150,000 fps a 1 pound piston and a 2 pound rod would load the rod bolts at valve overlap TDC with 13,975.2 pounds of tension. Max piston acceleration is at TDC and BDC.
55.4mm stroke 11,600 rpm 128,505.2 fps
60mm stroke 11,600 rpm 134,068.2 fps
55.4mm stroke 12,500 rpm 149,219.2 fps
60mm stroke 12,250 rpm 149,514.0 fps
So..... stock stroke and stock length rods, when above 13,000 rpms will most likely need gas ported pistons. And to rev above 12,500 rpms you should have carillos.
And a 60mm stroke and stock length rods will most likely need gas ported pistons above 12,000 rpms. And to rev a 60mm stroke 12r above 12,250 rpms you should have carillos.
Also, this is all subject to how long you want the engine to last. Running an engine on a continuous basis at these extremes wears the engine out a lot quicker as you would expect.
Are your pistons gas ported and all of that good stuff?
Shane
Shane,
thx for posting Jim's comments, my pistons are not gas ported but maybe they oughta be.
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KZScott
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posted November 07, 2009 08:14 AM
Karl, do you have current contact info for Dave Wolf?(Wolf Racing) He was running the old Muzzy pro stock 1498 to 13000 with stock rods wasnt he?
I emailed him some stroker related questions a few weeks back but didnt get a reply
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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texanzone
Novice Class
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posted November 08, 2009 12:52 PM
Karl what kind of lift and duration #'s do you have on those cams
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted November 08, 2009 01:23 PM
quote:
Karl, do you have current contact info for Dave Wolf?(Wolf Racing) He was running the old Muzzy pro stock 1498 to 13000 with stock rods wasnt he?
I emailed him some stroker related questions a few weeks back but didnt get a reply
scott,
i do have his contact info, i'll get it to you tomorrow
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entropy
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posted November 08, 2009 01:24 PM
quote:
Karl what kind of lift and duration #'s do you have on those cams
mike,
i have that info at work, get it to you tomorrow.
see, work has its benefits!
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dougmeyer
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posted November 08, 2009 04:16 PM
Stock rods live quite well to 13.2.... The issue is not the rods but the rod bolts in any case. The rods are plenty strong in compression but it's the bolts that take all the load at TDC.
Shane,
In the other thread on this topic, you ask about engine life and RPM. It's all about cycles. Every revolution is a cyclic load on each part. And, in most cases, that load is incrementally higher. So the higher you rev, the more often you are imposing an even higher load.
As usual, I'll use one of my absurd examples; leave a valve spring sit on the bench and you have a 100% certainty that it will last forever. Compress it 6000 times a minute and you cut into that, increase your revs to 13,000 and now you're compressing it 6500 times a minute. That's a 12% increase in usage, and that increased usage involves higher accelerations, loads, more heat, etc. Sooner or later it's gonna break. You just made it a little sooner.
Usually, the incremental load (assuming you are below a yield point) isn't as important as the increased cycles.
As to your question about the symptoms of ring flutter- mainly it is a sudden increase in blowby evidenced by increased pressure in the crankcase.
Doug
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KZScott
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posted November 08, 2009 04:32 PM
Is there a stronger bolt that will fit stock rods?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted November 08, 2009 05:03 PM
Doug - are you sure rod bolts see cyclic loading when properly installed? I thought the point of preloading them was to prevent cyclic loading and eliminate fatigue as a failure mode.
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2000redrocket
Pro
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posted November 08, 2009 06:30 PM
i can not imagin the bolt not seeing the load when it is the only thing holding the rod from flying into the head real fast. just my thought.
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2000redrocket
Pro
Posts: 1662
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posted November 08, 2009 06:33 PM
ent can you get jim to give you a bigger valve pocket to get your 102/102? that i think would loose less compression than lifting the head up with thicker gasket to try some time.
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