06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted November 06, 2009 08:05 AM
thin head gasket & stock cam timing
would the thin head gasket throw off stock cam timing? the builder wants $400 to degree cams and I'm not trying to pay that much at the moment
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
  
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KZScott
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posted November 06, 2009 08:55 AM
it will affect timing. does 400 include adjustable sprockets?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 08:57 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Nov 2009 17:17
What is the difference in gasket thickness, and just how much of an impact could that potentially have on the cam timing?
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06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted November 06, 2009 09:16 AM
Edited By: 06redzx14 on 6 Nov 2009 17:24
nope I have the sprockets already.
stock gasket is .030 thin is .018
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 09:19 AM
.030 vs. .018?
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06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted November 06, 2009 09:24 AM
thanks
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 12:27 PM
I'm really curious about this too.
How much can .012 of gasket thickness affect cam timing?
How tight is PTV clearance typically on a stock motor?
What is the typical squish of a stock motor??
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KZScott
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posted November 06, 2009 12:29 PM
you have a stock motor. you tell us 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 12:33 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Nov 2009 20:35
quote:
you have a stock motor. you tell us
I'm sure that the stock specs are fairly close between the 12 and 14.
Or is this the kind of "secret tuning stuff" that nobody wants to share? 
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KZScott
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posted November 06, 2009 12:39 PM
"trying to give you excuses to open it up"
I didnt measure the squish on my motor when it was stock, but this yrs combo was
#1 0.041
#2 0.045
#3 0.046
#4 0.043
kinda on the big side, but thats what i wanted after seeing mild piston to head contact after 08 with it setup a lil tighter
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted November 06, 2009 12:43 PM
I'm definitely thinking about doing a little to it. I'm just trying to get an idea of what will be involved, and how much room there is to improve it with minor changes such as the compression, squish, and cam timing.
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osti33
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posted November 06, 2009 02:33 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 6 Nov 2009 22:35
quote:
I'm really curious about this too.
How much can .012 of gasket thickness affect cam timing?
How tight is PTV clearance typically on a stock motor?
What is the typical squish of a stock motor??
Yes, .012" will affect cam timing and PTV. The only way to know how much it will affect your cam timing and PTV is to measure.
No two stock motors will be the same. That being said...My stock 02 ZX12 was around .028 PTV on the intake. That surprised the crap outta me. Y2K's was even tighter if I recall. 
The exhaust had a ton of room. I don't remember exactly how much. I'm going off memory from 2002/2003 here. All of my data is at home and I'm at work right now.
I don't remember what the squish was off the top of my head. The intake PTV sticks in my head because it was tighter than I thought it should be.
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted November 06, 2009 05:34 PM
It will retard the valve timing rotation back the .012 which is so many degrees of timing.
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Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted November 06, 2009 05:50 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 7 Nov 2009 01:51
quote:
Y2K's was even tighter if I recall.
Yep, it was. .022 If I remember correctly.
And yes it retards the cams. Its safer than it was with the other head gasket.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted November 06, 2009 09:42 PM
Cam chain is #20 inverted tooth chain; pitch is 1/4"
.012 / .250=.048 links
Crank sprocket is 17T
360 / 17 = 21.2 degrees per tooth
.048 * 21.2 = 1.0 degree
Creating .012 slack in the chain SHOULD retard the cams by 1.0 degree.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted November 07, 2009 04:55 AM
Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to calculate it.
Karl will have wood over this post.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted November 07, 2009 08:41 AM
That's a lot simpler and more accurate (fewer approximations) than how I usually calculate it. I use s=r(theta) where s is the arc length or thickness change, r is the pitch radius of the crank sprocket and theta is the resulting angle change.
r =number of sprocket teeth x chain pitch length/2pi =17(.25)/2pi =.6764"
theta=thickness/r =.012/.6764 =.0177 radians =1.0 degrees
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NINJA12
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posted November 07, 2009 09:20 AM
That's great news.
What effect does 1 degree have on power.
More overlap or less? move hp up or down the rpm scale?
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Shane661
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posted November 07, 2009 09:22 AM
quote:
That's a lot simpler and more accurate (fewer approximations) than how I usually calculate it. I use s=r(theta) where s is the arc length or thickness change, r is the pitch radius of the crank sprocket and theta is the resulting angle change.
r =number of sprocket teeth x chain pitch length/2pi =17(.25)/2pi =.6764"
theta=thickness/r =.012/.6764 =.0177 radians =1.0 degrees
Yeah, but if you do it the simple way you miss out on getting to use all of those cool math terms. 
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KZScott
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posted November 07, 2009 09:26 AM
so changing the CLs one degree makes it safer, but you are also moving everything closer together. which change has the greater effect on PTV? the one degree or moving the head by .012?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted November 07, 2009 12:09 PM
Retarding both cams makes more PTV on the intake and less on the exhaust. Overlap stays the same. The torque curve should generally be shifted to the right slightly, except for unusual cases. The extra compression from removing volume from the head should boost low-end torque and more than make up for the cam timing change.
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