joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 25, 2009 03:09 PM
adjustable cam sprockets
any one here installed AND tuned a set of these? I can't find anyone who knows anything about them.
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
  
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 25, 2009 09:29 PM
nearly everyone who regularly posts on this forum has installed and "tuned" adjustable sprockets. There are lotsa pix and discussions if you look at past threads.
good luck!!
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woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
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posted August 26, 2009 03:47 AM
#
http://www.zxzone.com/sprockets.html#anchor386526
#
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" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted August 26, 2009 06:20 AM
Yes, you should find plenty, I am about the only guy here who does not have them.......
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 26, 2009 03:46 PM
Yeah, woppi, I've got them I just cant find anyone who knows anything about setting them up. APE won't give recommended settings, "they say tune them on a dyno" as does another company I contacted. I talked to three mechanics today who say they can do it, but they don't use a dyno.
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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Halvefast
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted August 26, 2009 05:03 PM
What is done to your motor?
What kind of performance are you looking for, where are you going to use it?
Bill @ Cannon is probably the best guy to help you with numbers,
or maybe Johnnycheese might chime in for you.
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Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
Streetriders Shootout 2008 series Pro/ET Champ!
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 26, 2009 08:43 PM
Motor is stock. PCIII, filter, velocity stacks, full exhaust. Its a streetbike, not track or drag strip, just want everything I can get out of it. "I want to go FAST"
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 26, 2009 10:33 PM
If your stock bike isn't fast enough - and I mean this sincerely - then you need to learn how to ride it. There is no reason why a stock bike shouldn't be more than fast enough for the street, even with stock cam timing. My race bike will go 100+ in first gear, even with race gearing. That's faster than any speed limit I know of, and I still have five gears to go.
If you haven't been on the track yet, please do so soon. Most people who have been on the track have very little desire to go fast on the street. I'm not trying to be a dick - I'm just trying to give you the advice that I wish I'd listened to when I was in your situation.
However, if you're still looking for good street cam timing numbers, start in the low 100's, or whatever your PTV will allow, and work your way up from there. If you don't know what this means, then seriously, just leave it alone.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 27, 2009 12:47 AM
quote:
If you don't know what this means, then seriously, just leave it alone.
or...
get a McMaster-Carr account, a fresh MasterCard, and roll up yr sleeves 
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almost_les
Zone Head
Posts: 590
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posted August 27, 2009 08:24 AM
i don't see the point of putting them on a stock dispacement, stock compression motor.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 27, 2009 08:56 AM
There can be some benefits if you have an idea of the compromises you have to make. In Superbike racing, where stock-ish cams are required by the rules, along with stock pistons, rods and crankshaft, you can move the powerband around with cam timing to benefit certain on-track situations. I usually tune for drive off the corners at the expense of outright power because there are a lot more corners than straights. This is a compromise I'm willing to accept. But this is for a racing application; street bikes are already really stinking fast for their environment.
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Halvefast
Zone Head
Posts: 806
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posted August 27, 2009 10:29 AM
Spend the money on a bigger rear drive sprocket, more bang for the buck and easy to do! :~)
____________
Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
Streetriders Shootout 2008 series Pro/ET Champ!
Streetriders Shootout 2007 Series Pro/ET Runner-up!
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 27, 2009 11:13 AM
Ha-ha! No offense taken, tcchin. That's the same speech I give all the kids. I've been on the track for a few years. Maybe I should clarify my statement, "I want to go QUICK!"  Top speed isn't what I'm after, I'm wanting to fatten the power curve and learn something in the process. I'm not interested in bolting on NOS or a turbo, just trying to optimize the motor. Kind of like mapping a PCIII. No huge power gains, just optimizing. I'm assuming PTV is piston to valve clearance and since the factory set the cam lobe centers to 105 degrees, you"re recommending starting at 100 and working up from there? Without the use of a dyno, its all kind of pointless. And until I can figure out how to get my dial indicator to read the valve, a dyno is kind of pointless.
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 27, 2009 12:32 PM
A lot of quick can be gained through gearing. For example, our race gearing varies between 11% and 18% shorter than stock, depending on the track. That's equivalent to 11-18% more torque/power, basically for free, guaranteed.
Yes, PTV is piston to valve clearance. And don't assume that the stock cams have been timed accurately. Your as-built cam timing could be way off the spec for a number of reasons. If you have the clearance to run 100 LC on the intake, that's where we usually start with our motors. Lower LC numbers reduce PTV clearance and move the torque peak to the left, so we usually find out the minimum LC numbers and work up from there.
If you're riding on the street, you may be able to get away with seat-of-the pants tuning, because there's a lot more to tuning than just the dyno numbers. On the street, you have a lot of time to evaluate changes in terms of ridability, power delivery and performance. Racing is a different animal because of the time constraints and the narrow operating range, but the dyno is still only used for establishing baselines and identifying trends. The real goals in racing are lap times and throttle control (especially part-throttle), which do not correlate well with dyno numbers.
If you're really wanting to learn stuff, you need to make sure you have the right tools. You will need to have the means to drop the motor out of the frame to adjust the cams and measure PTV accurately. You will also need a lot of time, as these are things that are best performed without a set schedule. If you can't do this yourself and you don't have a wrench to whom you would trust your life (which is what you do when do ride your bike after it's been worked on), then I'd say just stick with gearing changes for now.
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 27, 2009 01:14 PM
Yeah, seat-of-the-pants is a little too hit or miss. As you know, there are days it seems the motor is making WAY more power and days where it seems weak. Toosl and time aren't a problem, and I can remove the cam cover, timing cover and get to the cam sprockets in a matter of about 30 minutes. I've got a degree wheel, dial indicator, piston stop, etc to set the timing with. My first problem is I can't figure out how to get around the cam lobe to measure valve lift. I DO know that with the sprockets set fully to one side of the slot or the other there is no PTV contact (I tried it), at least at hand rotated speed. If I could measure 100 degrees on either cam I would set one there and play with it just to see what it felt like and move them incrementally. I don't know which would produce the results I'm after, though, intake or exhaust changes, nor do I know if rotating the cam clockwise or counterclockwise increases the cam lobe center degree. I'm a tooth down on the front sprocket now which is about 6%.
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted August 27, 2009 02:14 PM
 Edited By: krexken on 27 Aug 2009 22:15
This is where a picture is worth a thousand words. I remove the indicator tip and insert a piece of welding rod for a homeboy indicator extension, about 2" worth. You have to get on one side or the other of the lobe. The tough part is getting you indicator to stay in contact with the bucket the entire stroke without touching anything else and screwing up your indicator readings. Without notching your cam cap, you also can't really get straight inline with the bucket either. Notching isn't necessary but it helps. Don't forget you pretty much have to check PTV clearance whenever you mess with the cam timing unless your going with bigger numbers, I believe. I'd suggest removing the outside #1 cylinder valvesprings and replacing them with light check springs from the get go so you cam measure PTV clearance in an instant. About 10 degress before or after TDC seems to be about the tightspot normally. Changing springs isn't very easy with the engine in place but can be done if you have much, much patience.
Aw heck, just saw your sig where you own a 14. They're pretty gravy compared to a 12. Overgrown zx10s is all they are. LOL
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 27, 2009 03:47 PM
Ha-ha! Yeah, there's no notching required of the cam cap, it stops one lobe from the end. I can see the cam, the bucket, everything just looking down at the top of the motor. Its getting AROUND that lobe thats killing me!
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted August 27, 2009 04:07 PM
The hard part is getting the indicator axis parallel to the valve stem axis. This will be difficult to do on the exhaust side with the motor in the frame. Likewise, removing the head to swap valve springs may be impossible to do with the motor in the frame.
DO NOT SET YOUR CAMS TO 100LC WITHOUT MEASURING PTV.
What I would recommend first is putting the stock cam sprockets back on and verify your stock cam timing and PTV. If you can't get the stock stuff to measure out right, go back and try again until you can. Once you feel confident that you can get those numbers repeatably, then take the next step and use the adjustable sprockets to dial in the stock cam timing, verifying PTV again. Then and only then should you try changing your cam timing.
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 27, 2009 06:21 PM
Damn, tcchin! You REALLY don't want me setting those cams to 100, do you! Just kidding, I'm with you on the timing. I've buttoned the motor back up, but I did leave the adjustable sprockets in. Cam timing is still at factory setting. I'm going to get one of the local mechanics to degree them and watch how he sets up and measures everything. Although, I think I'm gonna tear it down and put the stock sprockets on first so I can see how close they measure to spec. According to the service manual the motor does have to be dropped to get to the valve springs. If the motor gets dropped I'm going to go ahead and have some head work done and upgrade the springs. Got an opinion on swapping cams in my application?
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 27, 2009 06:44 PM
even if nothing touches when turning it over by hand, that doesnt mean you have enough clearance when the motor is actually running. PTV must be checked when timing changes, or the head is milled or a thinner gasket is used ect ect
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted August 27, 2009 07:52 PM
Question. How do you know the cam timing is still at factory settings with the adjustable sprockets in there? I have pulled the head on a 14 without pulling the engine. I may have tilted it down but I don't recall it being a big deal at all. Y2KZX12 provided the cnc ported head for the job. Cannot remember where I set the factory cams. I may have it written down in the shop. Owner claims he was satisified with the gains.
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joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
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posted August 28, 2009 07:57 AM
Okay, krexken, how about "I'm close to the factory setting"? I'm told the factory sert them to 105/105, with obvious variances. I've had the bike torn down for a month now trying to get these cams done, I've got it back together and I want to ride a bit. I'm going to see about dropping the head after it turns cold.
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'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted August 28, 2009 06:41 PM
Edited By: entropy on 29 Aug 2009 15:23
in case you haven't found out, Tim (tcchin) Scott (KZScott) Jim (Y2KZX12R), Doug Meyer, Johnny Cheese, and a few other guys on here are Gods.
lol.. just figured i'd pass that along.
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted August 29, 2009 06:55 AM
Building motors and racing is just a hobby(maybe an obsession ) for me. I have to learn how to do my own work to be able to afford the big stuff(well not all of it). I make mistakes too, Im no god. I made a flat oil pan for dads motor that decided to toast #4 rod bearings early this season. I added a deeper sump to the pan and actually just got the motor back in the bike last night. I forgot how loud it was with the Muzzy SW . spent all this week(evenings after work) getting it back together, to go racing today and its raining. just our luck...
here are some old pics from checking cam timing and PTV. note that I dont have the DI perpendicular to the bucket, so you have to take that into account and do a little math to get real numbers ( pythagorean theorem). its best to bend the probe to get the DI running with the bucket, or get the ends of the cams turned down at a machine shop.
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 29, 2009 07:29 AM
Scott,
a couple tips which might make yr life easier the next time you set CL's
1. turn the DU around so it faces the right side of the motor
2. try putting the probe on the side of the bucket towards the center of the motor
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