joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 25, 2009 01:08 PM
Doug Meyer
Dave Turner said i might find you here. I have some questions about your cam timing article.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
  
|
Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted August 25, 2009 02:51 PM
never heard of this Doug Meyer lol
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 25, 2009 05:35 PM
Well I'm here, but I'm sure many of us can answer your questions.
Shoot.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 25, 2009 06:13 PM
I'm degreeing my cams and have some questions. In your tech article on muzzys.com you state the micrometer should follow the valves, but with the cam acting directly on the valve how do I measure valve opening? I assumed the 180 added into your formula was compensation for measuring the cam lobe. Is that incorrect?
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 25, 2009 07:31 PM
go beside it. its kinda a pain unless you have the proper tools or do some modifications. you dont put the DI on the cam, it goes on the bucket
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 25, 2009 08:48 PM
joemugg,
My article is not "engine specific", it just describes the general process. You have to rig your dial indicator so that it tracks the bucket, like Scott says. Yes, you are incorrect in your assumption about adding in the 180 deg. The 180 degrees is the amount the crank turns between the opening and the closing number. Look carefully at the lift curves in the article and that should make sense. I suggest you do a search in this forum and the ZX12R forum on degreeing cams. You'll find a ton of discussion that will describe how it is done and what tools you need.
One thing you'll need to understand is WHY you are degreeing them, what sort of change are you trying to accomplish. If you don't have a specific goal, don't bother doing it.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 26, 2009 04:04 AM
Okay, thank you both for your answers. I'll work on it some more today and see where I can get.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted August 26, 2009 02:05 PM
I have some pics ill try to find....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 26, 2009 03:39 PM
Talked to 3 mechanics today who all said they degree WITHOUT using a dyno. Talked to 3 cam companies, 2 said "no recommended specs, tune it on the dyno" while the 3rd said 105 intake, 103 exhaust is what they found works best. I feel like I've stumbled into some black magic or secret fraternity here. Oh yeah, one of the companies told me if I'd use their cams with their sprockets I'd gain "between 1 and 12 HP". This is for a streetbike, not a track or dragstrip bike.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted August 26, 2009 05:46 PM
Those three mechanics probably don't have dynos to use. It's the mechanics who say that they degree without measuring clearances that you need to stay away from.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 26, 2009 06:23 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 27 Aug 2009 02:23
Joe,
It's not black magic, it's just a fine adjustment. If you don't have a dyno to reference the change, you don't know what your adjustment has accomplished, if anything. If you "adjust" incorrectly you can cause serious damage to your engine. Too many people assume that a given cam timing can always be improved upon, that for some reason he factory is "holding back the good stuff". 30 years ago this may have been true, but not because they were holding back, they just couldn't reach the power AND the emissions requirements at teh same time and the emissions requirements always won. Modern engines like yours are pretty well optimized and unless you make some other change that would make a cam timing change beneficial, it's pretty much not worth the trouble.
If you change the pistons (compression), or the cams, or the ECU, it's hard to justify all teh work (and dyno time) to search for the optimum numbers. If you do change one or all of those things, it's hard NOT to justify all that work.
Doug
Oh yeah, and I kinda' like that chick with the chopper......
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 26, 2009 08:39 PM
Okay, Doug, following is a list of mods. Is it worth bothering with degreeing the cams? PCIII, BMC filter, Muzzy full exhaust, velocity stacks, flies out. I'm trying to eak every last little bit of power I can, but like everybody I'm on a limited budget and can't waste paying someone to do this if its not gonna net me any gain, though I'm a little pissed I wasted the $50 and time so far. And thanks for your help, Doug.
And tcchin, I know at least one of the mechanics did have a dyno because he did my map. But I'm of the same opinion as you, stay away from one who does this w/o proving it on a dyno.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
Halvefast
Zone Head
Posts: 806
|
posted August 27, 2009 08:39 AM
Joe- if you need to get rid of those sprockets, I need to buy a set for an engine I'm building, maybe I could help you. LMK
____________
Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
Streetriders Shootout 2008 series Pro/ET Champ!
Streetriders Shootout 2007 Series Pro/ET Runner-up!
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 27, 2009 11:40 AM
I'll think about it, Halvefast. I'm really curious to know what adjusting the cams will do, I've gotten so many conflicting opinions on it. But without a dyno I'm never gonna find out. I hate to give up on the project, but I'm not too wild about having to buy a dyno to complete it. 
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted August 27, 2009 12:40 PM
quote:
I'll think about it, Halvefast. I'm really curious to know what adjusting the cams will do, I've gotten so many conflicting opinions on it. But without a dyno I'm never gonna find out. I hate to give up on the project, but I'm not too wild about having to buy a dyno to complete it.
Joe,
on a stock motor, fooling with cam timing will get you virtually nothing, maybe nothing at all, maybe even negative results without a lot of "set cams-dyno test", "set cams-dyno test", repeat, repeat, repeat.
If you have really solid, and I mean REALLY solid advice from someone like Brock or someone else who has done well documented tests as per above on a stoock motor, that 105/102 or 103/103 or 110/110, wjatever give a measureable, repeatable increase then maybe go for it.
BUT, watch out, the Dynojet dyno you are likely to use will be affected by conditions probably more than any gains you will see. You'll need to do the before/after test same day, same conditions to get results which are comparable.
Don't get me wrong, I love to do motor building & dyno testing. I set up my cams to 102.4/102.7 at 2am this morning and will go to the dyno in a couple weeks to test this set up. I'm looking for about 4hp at 8,000, 2hp at 12000, and that's important to my so called "program". Take note my motor is not stock, and does respond to cam timing... Stock motor is much less "tunable" for hp away from the factory set up.
Good luck, and I love seeing your persistent, inquisitive attitude.
Karl
CEO TFA 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 27, 2009 12:54 PM
Thanks, entropy, thats the conclusion I have reached as well. I'm putting mine back together now. I was sold these things under the premise that i'd see a 4HP gain in the midrange with proper tuning. I've got a thin head gasket sitting here, too, that after I purchased it was told "it doesn't really do anything, you might as well bore or stroke as long as you"ve got the motor torn down." I may change cams in the future, and use the adjustable sprockets then. The company that gave me the 105/103 setting was one of the reputable ones, but they were the only one who would even divulge a setting. What is confusing the hell out of me is the mechanics I've spoken with here who all say they know how to do this, but not a single one uses a dyno when doing it. Only one even HAS a dyno, and even he says he doesn't use the dyno to do it.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted August 27, 2009 08:33 PM
The thinner head gasket is more beneficial than messing with the cam timing.It will make a noticeable change.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted August 27, 2009 09:56 PM
+1 That, and the head gasket can be installed without cracking open the bottom end.
You realize that boring and stroking exist on a completely different plane than replacing a head gasket, right? A head gasket is about $70 plus a few hundred bucks in labor, while a bore/stroke project can easily exceed $5k in parts alone. That statement from your vendor is kinda like being told, "Sure, you can install those Ferodo XRAC brake pads you just bought, but they don't really work and you might as well install Brembo X99 Monobloc calipers and Narrow Track Superbike rotors while you have the calipers unbolted." Knives and gunfights.
Those cam timing numbers sound like they cam from Web, and that is a good, solid company. Sounds like you need to start dealing with more companies like them.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted August 27, 2009 10:07 PM
joe,
since the tech heavies (meyer & chin) have been so generous with advice, how about returning the favor by posting a much larger version of yr avatar?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted August 27, 2009 10:15 PM
Careful, Karl - I think that might be a Filipino man next to that chopper. You know, like the ones in that Thriller prison exercise video on You Tube.
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 28, 2009 12:51 AM
Doug, you say the head gasket WILL make a difference? Keep in mind I'm running pump gas. Yeah, tcchin, I know the bottom end is gonna get expensive and quite involved. I don't want to go that far, at least not now. But if you guys think the head gasket will actually make a difference I may install it soon. Since I'll have to remove the timing chain for that, I could have the cams timed when I reassemble it. And while the head is off I could change the cams and have the head ported and polished (anybody tried ExtrudeHone?), a valve job and upgraded springs, maybe bigger valves...
I'll post a big pic when I get back to my computer.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted August 28, 2009 12:55 AM
quote:
Careful, Karl - I think that might be a Filipino man next to that chopper. You know, like the ones in that Thriller prison exercise video on You Tube.
hmmmmm...
you might be right...
but if he has pert upturned nipples...
let's see what Joe has to offer.
(you are watching utubes i am not ? link? M Jackson is an icon, yes?)
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted August 28, 2009 05:44 AM
Edited By: TRNorBRN6001 on 28 Aug 2009 13:48
If you were discouraged by spending $50, the head work might give you sticker SHOCK.
I might have missed it, but I am curious what your application for the bike will be. Example: street riding, street racing, street racing from a rolling start, road racing, drag racing, LSR, or a combination................ As this may determine what advice the fellas here might be able to help you with. Some people become highly disappointed if they have a street bike that they putt around on and spend a grand or a couple grand on head work to find it feels slower because the power curve has shifted higher in the RPM range.
You may also want to find a mechanic that works with, on a regular basis, the model bike you are wanting to modify as they will be familar with what works best per $, HP range, and where the power will be.
Your riding style may also dictate what mods you do perform on your bike as well. Example: If I went "road racing" or street riding in some twisties, I would probably like a bike that had a lot of mid range power as I am a big chicken and would probably come out of a corner perty low in the RPM range compared to what a real racer/someone with experience and balls might do.
just my idiots two cents
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
joemugg
Expert Class
Posts: 109
|
posted August 28, 2009 07:47 AM
Its not the $50, its the wasted dollars. I don't mind spending for a result, I hate wasting. I mostly ride this bike on the street, albeit aggresively at times. I'm looking for a smooth power curve not a peaky spike. I can't find anyone close by who has done anything to the ZX14. Everybody seems to know 'Busas, but not 14's.
Entropy, how do I attach pics? Or give me your email and I'll shoot you this file.
____________
'06 ZX14 blue, Muzzy M14/M10, flies out, BMC filter, PCIII, SpeedoHealer, Scott's Steering Damper, 16 tooth Vortex
'97 GSXR600 street sweeper
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted August 28, 2009 10:20 AM
quote:
Entropy, how do I attach pics? Or give me your email and I'll shoot you this file.
Joe,
get an account at photobucket, upload yr pix to a folder you will create, then put a link to that pic on yr post
(or just email the pic to me )
guntekd@chevron.com
it would prob be good if someday you learned the photobucket/link routine; not at all difficult (once you know how).
Given your level of inquisitiveness, I am thinking you will enjoy this forum and will want to post pix in the future.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC