aliveagain
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posted June 20, 2009 06:55 PM
I'm done
Bike never got running right.I just did a compression test and got 255,212,217,235.I'm still trying to pay off what I owe for having the motor assembled.I'm just going to cover it up until next year.This really sucks!
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entropy
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posted June 20, 2009 08:40 PM
did you have the throttle wide open?
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Stuart Racing
Zone Head
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posted June 21, 2009 05:41 AM
Dammit man, what`s going on, what happened.....
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aliveagain
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posted June 21, 2009 05:51 AM
Wide open the whole time. The engine got hot twice when I had a malfunctioning fan.I suspect that is when it started.I know it is only a $140 head gasket but I would have to assume the head and or cylinder block warped.Money is real tight with one in college and buying her another car to drive.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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entropy
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Posts: 8671
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posted June 21, 2009 06:50 AM
pete,
do a leak down, it will tell the story.
how hot did it get when yr fan malfunctioned?
man, o' man, you have bad luck!
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aliveagain
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posted June 21, 2009 07:43 AM
My brother is not sure if we can do a leak down because of the all the valve overlap.Twice it got to the point where it was all the way up the temp scale and flashing.I was thrashing thru my drug burnt memory and seem to think I didn't have this problem when I first got the block.So I am optimistic that when I ensure that the sealing surfaces are true and a new gasket,then I will be all set.Just out of nosiness, how many head gaskets do you go through with all your tear downs?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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KZScott
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posted June 21, 2009 09:17 AM
ive had mine flashing at me a few times(by mistake) playing with the data logger in the shop. ive shut it off when i notice, but maybe yours was flashing for an extended amount of time?
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entropy
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posted June 21, 2009 10:06 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 21 Jun 2009 18:08
quote:
My brother is not sure if we can do a leak down because of the all the valve overlap.Twice it got to the point where it was all the way up the temp scale and flashing.I was thrashing thru my drug burnt memory and seem to think I didn't have this problem when I first got the block.So I am optimistic that when I ensure that the sealing surfaces are true and a new gasket,then I will be all set.Just out of nosiness, how many head gaskets do you go through with all your tear downs?
you for sure can do a leak down, i do one after every dyno session, TDC on compression stroke.
The only challenge in the leakdown is keeping the motor from turning when you put air to it.
You really ought to do a leakdown before tearing the motor apart, it'll tell you the story.
BTW, I generally put in a new HG every build, cases are split right now, building the Loring motor this week 
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ZRXDean
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posted June 21, 2009 06:59 PM
I reuse head gaskets that look good, if I don't have a spare. I second the leakdown request.
BTW, after cleaning and lapping my head is no longer leaking. Yeehaw, ready for Maxton.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 22, 2009 08:57 AM
quote:
I reuse head gaskets that look good, if I don't have a spare. I second the leakdown request.
BTW, after cleaning and lapping my head is no longer leaking. Yeehaw, ready for Maxton.
i lightly "lap" the head and cyl block every time i put the motor together, haven't had a HG fail since i started doing it (thanks, DaveO!).
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VincentHill
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posted June 22, 2009 09:47 AM
quote:
quote:
I reuse head gaskets that look good, if I don't have a spare. I second the leakdown request.
BTW, after cleaning and lapping my head is no longer leaking. Yeehaw, ready for Maxton.
i lightly "lap" the head and cyl block every time i put the motor together, haven't had a HG fail since i started doing it (thanks, DaveO!).
Lap the Head Gasket? Mine have sealer on them.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 22, 2009 10:31 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I reuse head gaskets that look good, if I don't have a spare. I second the leakdown request.
BTW, after cleaning and lapping my head is no longer leaking. Yeehaw, ready for Maxton.
i lightly "lap" the head and cyl block every time i put the motor together, haven't had a HG fail since i started doing it (thanks, DaveO!).
Lap the Head Gasket? Mine have sealer on them.
whoa! perfessor, can't lap the HG!!!!!
(where did you see that?)
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted June 22, 2009 10:38 AM
I think Ryan has the nicest lapping block of any one.
And the best part is no one can steal it, it weighs as much as a small car, or at least a full dresser HD. 
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 22, 2009 12:24 PM
my garage barbies like to do "lap" dances on the cyl block, sliding here & there.
I had to stop em because they were spending a lot sliding back & forth on the skinny part between the cylinders, and that we can't have!
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osti33
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posted June 22, 2009 06:12 PM
Edited By: osti33 on 23 Jun 2009 02:13
quote:
I think Ryan has the nicest lapping block of any one.
And the best part is no one can steal it, it weighs as much as a small car, or at least a full dresser HD.
It's a bigun. About 3000lbs. 
It comes in handy. I'm just glad I don't have to move it.
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aliveagain
Needs a life
Posts: 5033
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posted June 22, 2009 06:13 PM
quote:
quote:
I think Ryan has the nicest lapping block of any one.
And the best part is no one can steal it, it weighs as much as a small car, or at least a full dresser HD.
It's a bigun. About 3000lbs.
It comes in handy. I'm just glad I don't have to move it.
We need pics!
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aliveagain
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posted June 23, 2009 07:10 PM
Ah so! Grasshopper admit when he errs.I was told my compression test was not to worry about because it was done on a cold engine.I was told to put some more miles on it and do the leak down and compression test.I put a new set of plugs in and the midrange up is nice and smooth.I would also like to get a base reading on the dyno just to see where the afr is.My plugs only last a few days and then I have problems.Not too shabby, just as the rain is starting to go away,things are looking up again.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 24, 2009 02:53 AM
pete,
not to be a downer, but i always do compression tests on a cold motor, and my results are consistent.
If it were me i would do a leakdown before proceding, just for my peace of mind.
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aliveagain
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posted June 24, 2009 04:09 AM
Well then do you do the leak down hot or cold? Once again they are telling me the engine must be hot for proper sealing and to get an accurate reading.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 24, 2009 05:00 AM
Edited By: entropy on 24 Jun 2009 14:46
I do leakdowns cold also and get consistent numbers.
prob the "right" way is to do 'em warm, but i only do comptression tests right before i start up a new motor (obviously cold), and i always do leakdown in my garage after every dyno or track session and by then it is cold.
TimChin got me doing routine leakdowns and i am hooked, it's like taking yr blood pressure: either a satisfying confirmation that you are healthy or a call to action when you are not.
these are the tests i have done so far this year ( I am SOOOOOOOOOO addicted to tests )
3-Jan-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=3.5-4%, #2=2%, #3=2.5%, #4=3.5-4%
11-Jan-09 NEW head: cold comp BEFORE dyno, 50F: #1-305psi; #2-305psi; #3-305psi; #4-300psi(1st) (CR = 16.0:1; CL = 107.4/110.3)
18-Jan-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2.5%, #3=2.5%, #4=3%
24-Jan-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2%, #2=2%, #3=2.5%, #4=2.5%
31-Jan-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1= 1.5-2%, #2=2.5%, #3=4%, #4=4.5%
14-Feb-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1= 4.5%, #2=2%, #3=2.5%, #4=4.5%
8-Feb-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1= 4%, #2=22%, #3=4%, #4=3% (after 198 steps)
20-Feb-09 ANDY head: cold comp BEFORE dyno, 50F: #1-280psi; #2-290psi; #3-290psi; #4-285psi(1st) (CR = 15.8:1; CL = 104.2/107.3)
21-Feb-09 ANDY head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2%, #3=2.5%, #4=4%
21-Feb-09 ANDY head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2%, #3=2.5%, #4=4%
28-Feb-09 ANDY head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2%, #3=2%, #4=4% (took 24 min)
5-Mar-09 "ANDY head: leakdown after Texas Mile (cold motor): #1=5%, #2=95%, #3=10%, #4=3%
#2 & #3 seem to be leaking into crankcase; #2 PISTON HAS A HOLE IN IT "
29-Apr-09 ANDY head: before startup: #1-275psi; #2-320psi; #3-280psi; #4-275psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 104.3/106.1)
2-May-09 JIM head: before startup: #1-280psi; #2-285psi; #3-285psi; #4-278psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 102.3/103.3)
8-May-09 JIM head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=5%, #2=3%, #3=4%, #4=3%
12-May-09 JIM head: before startup: #1-260psi; #2-270psi; #3-265psi; #4-265psi (CR = 15.6:1; CL = 108.1/110.3)
24-May-09 JIM head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2.5%, #3=2%, #4=2.5%
24-May-09 JIM head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=4%, #2=2.5%, #3=2%, #4=3%
5-Jun-09 NEW head: before startup: #1-285psi; #2-290psi; #3-285psi; #4-290psi (CR = 15.4:1; CL = 107.2/107.2)
6-Jun-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2.5%, #2=2%, #3=3%, #4=2%
13-Jun-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2.5%, #2=4%, #3=4.5%, #4=3.5%
29-Jun-09 NEW head: leakdown after dyno (cold motor): #1=2%, #2=2.5%, #3=4%, #4=2.5%
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aliveagain
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posted June 24, 2009 06:04 AM
Awesome numbers!! Now I'm not disputing your readings,but for the sake of discussion,both said even if there is a small leak while cold,once warmed should seal back up.Mind you these are car guys and it may be different on bikes.Whats your opinion on this?
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aliveagain
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posted June 24, 2009 01:56 PM
For the most part,the numbers stayed the same when I heated up the engine.
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dougmeyer
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posted June 24, 2009 04:16 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 25 Jun 2009 00:40
One of the major changes in BORE Leak Rate numbers over the years is due to the advent of plated bores. Iron bores whether sleeves or cast block rarely give as low a leak percentage as a plated bore. Also, the larger the bore the higher the minimum acceptable base leak rate. Think about it- an 85mm bore has 10.5 linear inches of ring to cyl surface to seal. A 4.5 inch bore in a Chevy has has 14.2 inches to seal. Also the valve circumferences are larger. All this adds up to a small leak over a larger distance giving a greater percentage of leak rate. Having said that, I have seen aluminum 500 cu inch silicon-aluminum bore V-8s with less than 2% and even occasionally 0 leak rate. My own personal take-it-apart-and-look point is 10-15% (hot) on an iron (auto) engine and 5% -8% on a plated motorcycle engine. A 550 cu in, air cooled aircraft engine is lucky to get 15% because the cylinders are thin and sort of "flexible" . As far as valve leakage goes, anything detectable on an inlet worries me, but I almost never worry about an exhaust valve because it's usually just crap on the seat.
Jim, where are you on this?
Doug
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Y2KZX12R
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posted June 25, 2009 03:28 AM
quote:
As far as valve leakage goes, anything detectable on an inlet worries me, but I almost never worry about an exhaust valve because it's usually just crap on the seat.
Agreed. there should be no leakage on a fresh valve-job, if lapped in. But once the engine gets some time on it exhausts buildup carbon etc. on the seats that can cause some leakage during tests but wont cause a problem on a running engine.
Pete, do a leak down before you do anything.
Because of the fan/overheating issue, I'd re torque those head nuts. Do them ONE AT A TIME !! Back off half the torque and re-torque. Its gonna be difficult to keep that Superbike Mike block sealed being so thin between the bores. Also the spacer, gaskets, sealer,head gasket may settle in a bit from the heat.
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NOX
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posted June 25, 2009 05:32 AM
quote:
One of the major changes in BORE Leak Rate numbers over the years is due to the advent of plated bores. Iron bores whether sleeves or cast block rarely give as low a leak percentage as a plated bore. Also, the larger the bore the higher the minimum acceptable base leak rate. Think about it- an 85mm bore has 10.5 linear inches of ring to cyl surface to seal. A 4.5 inch bore in a Chevy has has 14.2 inches to seal. Also the valve circumferences are larger. All this adds up to a small leak over a larger distance giving a greater percentage of leak rate. Having said that, I have seen aluminum 500 cu inch silicon-aluminum bore V-8s with less than 2% and even occasionally 0 leak rate. My own personal take-it-apart-and-look point is 10-15% (hot) on an iron (auto) engine and 5% -8% on a plated motorcycle engine. A 550 cu in, air cooled aircraft engine is lucky to get 15% because the cylinders are thin and sort of "flexible" . As far as valve leakage goes, anything detectable on an inlet worries me, but I almost never worry about an exhaust valve because it's usually just crap on the seat.
Jim, where are you on this?
Doug
Good post.
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