SteddyTeddy
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posted June 19, 2009 04:54 AM
 Edited By: SteddyTeddy on 19 Jun 2009 13:06
Read my plugs
Does the left plug look like oil burn? Still fighting this problem with #2. About ready to pull the head and see what's up. Thinking bad valve seals even though this head was fresh when the motor went together. Compression is even accross the board. Been through the carbs several times and possitive they are right. Bike doesn't smoke but will puff some soot once in a while if run hard. Long rides at low RPMs and city traffic will eventually foul the plug.
  
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ZRXDean
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posted June 19, 2009 05:50 AM
Could you have tweaked or overlapped the oil ring on that cylinder?
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SteddyTeddy
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posted June 19, 2009 06:01 AM
I am always extra extra carefull on those oil rings. Looks like the head will have to come off soon. Time to get a big valve head ready.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted June 19, 2009 07:39 AM
See my post on the zrex board....
It looks like oil contamination.
In short, the 2nd ring is actually more of an oil ring than a compression ring. Its most likely a Napier Hook style or a beveled ring. In either case if its put in upside down (very easy mistake to make) it cant properly scrape and control the oil in that cylinder.
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VincentHill
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posted June 19, 2009 08:02 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 19 Jun 2009 16:09
Also could be an Intake Valve Guide seal but for sure it is OIL! Now you have 2 places to look! I would remove the Carbs and using a Bore Scope look at the intake valve while down and see if there is oil on the back side and stem. The put in into the spark plug hole and look around First!
I bought a Bore Scope for about $100 and sold it a year later for the same amount!
http://www.restockit.com/18-Flexible-Borescope-5-8-mm-Scope-(SLIPV618).html?source=froogle
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SteddyTeddy
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posted June 19, 2009 08:06 AM
I hate to think I made such a rookie mistake as to install a ring upside down, but at this point it has to be one or the other. I want it to be a valve seal because someone else did the valve job. 
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VincentHill
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posted June 19, 2009 11:54 AM
Do you know how to tell which side of an Oil Control ring is "UP"?? Yes I am speaking of the thin rings that have no marking!
A seal can be bad for several reasons. #1 it was bad to begin with. #2, it got damaged in installation. #3, it got damaged when installing the valve. #4, a piece of metal or grit damaged it in operation #5, it was overheated and simply losed it seal. I trry to use the ones that do not have the spring clip.
I hate this for you!
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 14, 2009 11:51 AM
Rings were all installed correctly. Problem resulted from piston to head clearance being too close. Pistons were just tapping the head on the exhaust side. Engine is completely down and new rod bearings going in. Then it's getting new pistons and a fresh head with oversize valves. Going to add a base gasket this time to get me a little more clearance. Shooting for about .042" this time around. Last was set at .034". Should I go for more? Each base gasket is .008".
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted September 14, 2009 01:01 PM
How did the piston/head contact cause the oil consumption?
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 14, 2009 01:59 PM
Didn't allow the rings to properly seat.
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Johnnycheese
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posted September 14, 2009 02:57 PM
????????
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted September 14, 2009 03:40 PM
quote:
Didn't allow the rings to properly seat.
Can you elaborate on that?
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 14, 2009 04:31 PM
Cylinders are scrapped on the intake side mostly. Cylinder #2 was the worst.
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dougmeyer
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posted September 14, 2009 05:05 PM
Were they trapped in the grooves or free?
Do you mean scratched, as in individual vertical lines on the piston skirt and cyl wall, or do you have large areas that look "smudged" or smeared?
Why would you have the insufficient PtoC on only one cylinder?
Light contact will not cause that. There's more going on here.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 14, 2009 05:14 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 15 Sep 2009 01:23
I agree Doug, somthing is going on.
Ted,
Look at the valve guides in the intake ports. Do you see a dark trail in the port from the valve guide or guides? Compare those guides to the other 6 intakes. Also look at the exhaust and look for similar trials from those guides.
You need a big valve CNC ported head on that bitch! 
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 14, 2009 06:41 PM
Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here are a bunch of pictures. Damage was pretty eqaul in all holes. Also had the chrome peeling on 6 of the 8 intake rockers. They were used and known to fail. Installing hardened ZZR rockers this go around.
#2 This was the worst for contact. The other 3 were mainly just on the exhaust side.
#2 top
intake skirt
exhaust skirt
#1 intake side
#2 untake side
#1 exhaust side
#2 exhaust side
rod bearing upper
rod bearing lower This was the worst looking one. #3
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
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posted September 14, 2009 10:31 PM
damn bro.. lots of carnage there.
think it's possible bits of chrome slipped past the guides and into the chambers, contributing to wall score?
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occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted September 14, 2009 10:47 PM
The contact marks on the head look pretty uniform in three of the four cylinders, but the contact seems to be curiously biased towards the right side of the piston. Nothing looks all that bad, though. There's visible scuffing, but it's not deep enough to obscure the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls. The bearings don't look bad, and the piston/head contact looks like it was pretty light.
Since this thread started out as a spark plug discussion, why does it appear as though the #2 spark plug was burning nicely (no obvious oil fouling)?
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 15, 2009 04:06 AM
The plug looks good because it was fresh and only had 1 night at the track at WOT. It was the around town riding that would foul it. After seeing all 4 cylinders I'm surprised only #2 was fouling. The cylinders may be saved by having them stripped and replated. I assume the head contact contributed or caused most of the cylinder damage? The engine has maybe 2000 miles on it but most of it at the track.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 15, 2009 04:25 AM
Tim, I see that bias... Ted, can you feel those marks in the cylinder walls? The bearings don't look bad but the pins look galled. That's the first place to see an issue with pistons hitting the head.
The contact above the pin isn't cool. Light contact from piston rock cold is one thing but that was hitting above the pin where piston rock doesn't come into play. I'd bet that when the assembly is torqued down you were much less than .034" piston to head clearance. I'd torque the block down without the head and re-check that on #2 cyl.
Look at the wrist pins and pin bores. They are most likely galled up. you will need to hone the pin bores in the rods before installing new pins.
You also want to check the rods for twist and bend. You may very well have some bent rods.
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 15, 2009 05:13 AM
Can feel some scratches but most of it looks to be galling from the piston skirts. 2nd ring on piston 4 is sticking in the ring land. Yes there is some galling on the wrist pins as well.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 15, 2009 07:44 AM
Ted,
Use some muriatic acid on the bores. It will remove the aluminum from the bores.
Then you can do a very quick, light hone and wash and clean with soap and water.
Then you can realy evaluate the condition of the bores.
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Y2KZX12R
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 15, 2009 08:22 AM
Will do. I have a fresh cylinder and new pistons going back in this motor. Same pistons just upped CR to 13.5. I'm hoping this stuff can be salvaged for my spare motor. My main concern is to get it right this time and have it last.  I beat my spare stock motor for 3 years and it still looks great inside.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 16, 2009 04:08 AM
You can hone the piston pin bores but the tight ring lands are a problem.
If its just carbon binding the rings then you can clean the ring lands with chemicals only. Do not EVER use any kind of scraper or metal object to clean ring grooves.
A q-tip and carb clean works well.
Shoot for .040" over the pin for clearance. You may have had .034" before at the squish pads but that translates to about .016" less at the pin because of piston rock, cold.
Make sure the block is bolted down snug with spacers (deep sockets) under a few head bolts to do the checking. When the head is bolted down and torqued it will only be less than what you measure so if its close go looser.
Forged pistons need more clearance to the head than stock cast pistons due to the extra skirt clearance needed due to silicon content in the pistons.
What are you doing for a cylinder head? who did the work? Just curious.
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SteddyTeddy
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posted September 16, 2009 04:56 AM
I had a local friend do the head. Matt at HPS Cylinder Head. He runs a small shop and does nothing but heads and intakes. Everything from motorcycles to Pro Modified. Went with Ferrea 1mm oversize valves, Kibble springs, and Busa aluminum retainers. He said the short turn on the exhaust ports was terrible. I'm just waiting on parts to arrive so I can start assembly again. Still have a lot of prep work to finish until then. If the head helps like I think it will, I should see at least mid 180's on pump gas. She pulled 179hp SAE shortly after the initial build.
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