Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 04:08 AM
Injector/TB Freezing With Nitrous?
I have a spraybar for my 14 that takes a jet for each nozzle. The nozzles are located directly above each velocity stack. For a a long run of 1-1.5 miles is there a danger of freezing the butterflies open, or freezing/sticking an injector?
If so, at what volume of nitrous (jet) do you think this would be a problem? We are looking at potentially 20+/- seconds on the button.
Shane
  
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woppi
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posted June 08, 2009 04:22 AM
is it a wet system ??
how much you wnat to spray ??
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" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
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Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 04:28 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jun 2009 12:29
Dry. Well, I'm trying to determine how much to spray. I'm thinking no more than 50-60 hp to the wheel.
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woppi
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posted June 08, 2009 04:57 AM
i am not an expert !
but i think 50-60 Dry !! is to much !!
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" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
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Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 05:02 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jun 2009 13:06
Maybe it is..or maybe it isn't. It will be progressive, with a/f monitoring, egt monitoring on all cylinders, good fuel (not pump) and timing control. Obviously I will be watching the injector duty cycle as well.
I am more concerned about the freezing potential right now.
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Gixx1300R
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posted June 08, 2009 05:22 AM
Shane,I have not heard about any throttle body butterflies freezing with top end runs.
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Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 07:15 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jun 2009 15:55
My safest bet is probably to put a thermocouple in the TB and monitor the intake temp. My TC-4 handles 4 thermocouples for egt, and I believe that my DL-32 can handle an additional one with its built-in sensors.
Maybe I will be able to get that setup in the next month or two. I should have the DL-32 basics done this month.
Shane
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dougmeyer
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posted June 08, 2009 10:07 AM
Doubtful, but remotely possible. I wouldn't worry about it. It's the 20 seconds on the spray I'd be worried about!
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Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 12:25 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 8 Jun 2009 20:28
quote:
Doubtful, but remotely possible. I wouldn't worry about it. It's the 20 seconds on the spray I'd be worried about!
I'm concerned about all of it, Doug. If there is a potential issue with freezing then I would like to take precautions up front. This might mean a different setup, a different location from which I spray, a wet system, less spray, tapping the cylinder head, etc..
Just soliciting opinions...and hopefully getting some feedback from people who have used a similar setup.
Shane
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tcchin
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posted June 08, 2009 12:46 PM
The throttle plates should not be a problem, as you have both an opening and a closing cable on the throttle. The injectors are getting a constant flow of warm, pressurized fuel through them, so freezing should not be an issue there either.
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dubious
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posted June 08, 2009 03:08 PM
Shane, Just a little bit of insight from my experience would be concerned about 20 seconds of NOS more than anything.
20 seconds of NOS is alot harder on the engine than 8 seconds at a time.
The problem with the stock pistons is the lack of compression height above the top ring, where it becomes distorted, collapsing on the ring, or the leading edge burns off at the exhaust valve pocket above the top ring
Can you run the nos for the last 1/2 of the mile?
On a 50 shot I was emptying 2-20 oz bottles, or reducing the NOS pressure dramatically in 10 seconds straight!
Without considering needs for the engine, I would think you will need about 4 -5 lbs of nitrous( large volume to maintain pressure), and /or regulated on board bottle warmers to deliver the NOS for the entire 20 seconds consistently.
Unless you run C16 or similar, I would consider pulling some timing for more than 50 HP shot.
I would not be concerned with the TB freezing, if you are putting the nozzle in the head like a wet shot would eliminate that issue.
I heard that guys who run wet shots in this fashion like to have the nozzle as close to the intake valve as possible to make the most HP.
This is my experince with long shots of NOS, take or leave it.
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Shane661
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posted June 08, 2009 03:53 PM
I won't be spraying the full shot for anywhere near that 20 seconds.
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dougmeyer
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posted June 08, 2009 06:50 PM
The guys that I'm friendly with at Bonneville often "tickle" the button to nudge the bike faster and faster, rather than keep it spraying. The big engine car guys are using MASSIVE wet shots.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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VincentHill
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posted June 09, 2009 08:51 AM
On my Stock engine ZX12 I sprayed between a 40 to 60 shot dry (added 2 to 3 bars richer in the PC). No problem. BUT Pierre says that the 14 has "Softer" Pistons and they will not handle much more than a 20 shot for any length of time. What Pistons are in your 14?
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Shane661
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posted June 09, 2009 08:53 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 9 Jun 2009 17:02
quote:
On my Stock engine ZX12 I sprayed between a 40 to 60 shot dry (added 2 to 3 bars richer in the PC). No problem. BUT Pierre says that the 14 has "Softer" Pistons and they will not handle much more than a 20 shot for any length of time. What Pistons are in your 14?
My bike has stock pistons. I guess if I blow it up, it will then have aftermarket! 
I do know of others who have had some success. I am hoping that with careful application and monitoring I will be ok.
Shane
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VincentHill
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posted June 09, 2009 09:08 AM
You surely want to consider using other Pistons. Hurt the Piston in a 12, change the Block! Hurt the Piston in a 14 Change the engine! I saw some on e-bay for the 12 at under $600 Better than the price of a set of cases!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Halvefast
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posted June 09, 2009 01:36 PM
Shane-
It will be ok for maxton, but if you were planning on loring, IDK??
I used a similar set-up here in TX last year, ran 4 consecutive passes over 200mph, still running today.
Here is the particulars"
Spraybar, Q-16 to help running on motor, muzzy adj. rotor -1, (bike hates retard, loves advance)
Bike made 190hp on motor with Q-16 +4 advance, made 241hp on spray with -2 degrees, duty cycle 88% AFR 11.7
Gearing 18-40, had map rich above 9000rpm, shifted 1-2 @ 9000,
hit the button @ 9k in 3rd and stayed in it the whole rest of the mile,
about 16 seconds from what I can figure.
It used 1.5lbs out of 2.5 bottle and held pressure @ 900psi
Email me if you have anymore questions, rrhalverson @ yahoo,
or talk to Johhnycheese he did the nos mapping for me!
____________
Texas Mile 200.256mph - Oct. 2007 (Update 202.577mph Oct 2008) NOS assisted
ECTA Ohio Mile 195.132mph
TexasMile 2012 199.9 mph all motor!
Streetriders Shootout 2008 series Pro/ET Champ!
Streetriders Shootout 2007 Series Pro/ET Runner-up!
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dubious
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posted June 09, 2009 10:39 PM
hmmm,
you did better than I halvefast.
I had 2-20 oz bottles, and they would frost up, and lose pressure after 10-12 seconds...
#32 Jet.
Did you have a siphon tubes in your bottles ?
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted June 10, 2009 05:57 AM
Rich was just the man I was going to recommend you talk to. Be aware that 1/2Fast is a very talented racer though.
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Shane661
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posted June 10, 2009 06:51 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 10 Jun 2009 14:57
quote:
hmmm,
you did better than I halvefast.
I had 2-20 oz bottles, and they would frost up, and lose pressure after 10-12 seconds...
#32 Jet.
Did you have a siphon tubes in your bottles ?
Lyle, I'm thinking that the two small bottles might have been a little problematic, depending on your setup. Also, if you weren't running a spraybar, you might have had a less efficient system. I've also found that it is important to weigh bottles before/after filling. For example, the paintball shop sometimes only puts 2 oz. in my 3.5 oz Co2 bottles, or 6 oz. in my 9 oz. bottles.
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