entropy
Moderator
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posted June 02, 2009 04:17 AM
piston pix: new JE's after 5 hard dyno sets
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woppi
Pro
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posted June 02, 2009 04:52 AM
entropy
this 5 dyno sets --- with the ngk plugs ? 
? ? ?
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entropy
Moderator
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posted June 02, 2009 06:22 AM
woppi,
i use plugs that look very similar but are Denso's.
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted June 02, 2009 06:34 AM
Karl, what caused that?
How do you not get tired of working on that motor. I think you have OCD for sure.........LOL
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entropy
Moderator
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posted June 02, 2009 06:47 AM
Hey NOX,
i have no idea what it is.
Nope, i am not yet tired of working on that motor bc i learn something new everytime i open it up.
Some of the "new" stuff, is stuff i learned last yet and forgot, but it seems new 
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WRECKSHOP
Expert Class
Posts: 359
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posted June 02, 2009 07:04 AM
 Edited By: WRECKSHOP on 2 Jun 2009 15:05
Maybe try to have the piston crowns "ceramic coated" and see if that helps out with the problem !!! Looks like a heat problem to me !!!
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted June 02, 2009 07:27 AM
I was thinking that, but I am no expert in reading that type of stuff..........
I bet that thing sounds NASTY when it runs........
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21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 02, 2009 08:03 AM
i really don't know if there is a problem at all.
I relieved the area under the plug with a dremel for clearance, so that is the "hole".
cleaning of the piston was done by a shop towel & brake cleaner. I made no attempt to get all the discoloration off. I'll try scotchbrite tonight before buttoning on the head.
I wish i knew stuff
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Shane661
Needs a life
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posted June 02, 2009 08:05 AM
Karl, what's the Build Count for 09? Are you falling behind?
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted June 02, 2009 09:15 AM
Maybe that's what caused the mottled deposits on your plugs. If you have the patience, I'd switch fuels and do another set of runs to see if that pitting persists.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 02, 2009 09:38 AM
Shane: I am right on schedule
Tim: it's weird, that "pitted" area is equally on all 4 pistons, but only #2 has that mottled look, maybe a titsch on #3, but no hint of it on 1, 4????
Guess i am gonna get a garden variety jug of C-12 and see what my motor looks like after drinking it, although i hate to think what it'll do to hp 
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
Posts: 2225
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posted June 02, 2009 10:05 AM
I used the get similar surface pitting on the ZRX, NA and boosted. Haven't seen it on the ZX10 yet. I have no clue.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted June 02, 2009 10:26 AM
Curious does it feel a little rough. Might be too fast a burn rate, low specific gravity of fuel coupled with ARC igniter, and timing advance. I am an idiot though.
Doesn't your buddy Izuma process the actual surface material of pistons, might make them a little tougher on top.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 02, 2009 10:58 AM
the surface doesn't feel pitted; maybe JE uses Chinese aluminum 
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted June 02, 2009 11:35 AM
Aruminum?
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted June 02, 2009 09:14 PM
BTW, from what I can see in the pics, it looks like your squish is just about perfect.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 03, 2009 02:41 AM
quote:
Aruminum?
rarararararararararararararar...
i can hear em saying it
squish is at .034, and the exh side is still hitting but not to bad and not on all cyl.
The best thing is that the skirts of this JE new style piston have not deformed (yet), got my fingers crossed.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted June 03, 2009 04:14 AM
Because you saw some HP loss with the MSD unit on the dyno at certain rpms you are increasing the neg HP by advancing the cylinder pressure rise curve. This can also lead to detonation. Anywhere you had a hp loss from this MSD unit you need to reduce the ignition advance.
Normally the combustion gasses never touch the piston. There is a boundary layer. Detonation (actually the supersonic shock wave from the detonation) disturbs or washes away this boundary layer and exposes the piston to the 1000+ degree temps. This starts to heat and melt the aluminum. This is bad.
I'd say you are still having detonation issues. You could change fuels or mix some C-16 in there but you really need to reduce the ignition timing where you saw a HP loss from the MSD unit. This will give you a HP increase in those areas where you saw a loss.
You can post my email Karl.. it might be helpful to others on here.
Once you have the optimal ignition advance in all the areas of the map then you can start blending fuels. C-16 will not detonate at all but can cost some hp. So mix it sparingly, like 30%. But you may not even need to change or mix fuels once you have the timing issues resolved.
Isn't this fun Karl !!!
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entropy
Moderator
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posted June 03, 2009 04:47 AM
quote:
....
You can post my email Karl.. it might be helpful to others on here.
Isn't this fun Karl !!!
yes indeed this is fun, but only because we have Jim, Tim, Doug and other smart folk who patiently share their knowledge 
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Karl, very Interesting.
If you are seeing a HP loss from a better ignition source and you dont change the timing advance then it can only mean that you are creating more negative HP. Which means that you need to take some timing out.
The HP should rise as you retard the timing because you are retarding the cylinder pressure rise in relation to crank angle BTDC. Once you stop gaining HP by retarding the ignition timing at that particular rpm you should start to see the HP go down, then you know you went too far.
If you are seeing an increase in HP from the better ignition source and you havent changed the ignition timing advance then the engine is bennifiting from an earlier pressure rise in the cylinder and it may like more ignition timing advance as well.
We see this with MSD units all the time. Its not uncommon to have to recurve the ignition advance in the distributor and or change the base timing when adding an MSD unit. It can also effect EGT and BSFC.
Jim
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted June 03, 2009 06:24 AM
I have an idea. Let's try and get it too RICH for a change, OK ? I mean way too rich. and then sneak back into it from that side. That is not a happy motor. I heard it saying "Oh no, not THIS again, all the way up in Oregon.
And do what Jim said , too.
Doug
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ZRXDean
Needs a job
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posted June 03, 2009 07:54 AM
Yikes. I guess that explains the ZRX pistons, I ran on the edge of detonation all the time.
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted June 03, 2009 07:58 AM
Mmmmm - fatter and slower. Now that's my kinda tuning regimen!
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Shane661
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posted June 03, 2009 07:59 AM
Karl, what fuel do you normally run?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted June 03, 2009 08:44 AM
quote:
Karl, what fuel do you normally run?
C-44
I am all for solving whatever issue I have
cc-ed my new build last night, 15.4:1, quench = .034.
This one has a different head where the seats aren't sunk so deep.
Hoping to get CL's = 105/107
Fuel map is fat now, 12.2-12.5
I probably have 40 or so passes down the Mile and never holed a piston before March.
A lil tweaking with fuel, ign timing, fuel map oughta make things better, eh?
At Loring, it will be solid.
In prep, I'll have Andy hold it WOT at 11500 for 30sec, THAT oughta test it
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Shane661
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posted June 03, 2009 08:52 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 3 Jun 2009 17:22
quote:
quote:
Karl, what fuel do you normally run?
C-44
Specific Gravity: .676 @ 60°F
Lead: Yes
Color: Purple
Motor Octane: 98.6
Wow! That seems like low octane for such high compression! Isn't that on the edge??
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