entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 24, 2009 02:41 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 26 May 2009 07:26
plug readers: lets hear from you
plugs after 12000rpm dyno step, any thoughts?:
Plugs 2 & 3 different from 1,2, i don't know what to make of it??????
(Ryan: watch out, the copper O ring can fall off the plug on these bastids, bitch getting it outa the hole.)
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
  
|
Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted May 24, 2009 01:58 PM
Karl 1-4 run leaner than 2-3 on a zx12
did you get the box?
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted May 24, 2009 02:21 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 24 May 2009 22:21
Oooooh - that's an ethereal background!
It's a little more difficult to read surface gap plugs because they don't have a ground electrode, but I'd say, colorwise, that the plugs look good. The porcelain shows just a hint of color and the base ring is medium brown/gray, just like it should be. You certainly aren't too lean...
Were the exhaust ports uniform in color, or were the outer ports lighter, too?
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted May 24, 2009 04:00 PM
Very nice spark bolts!
Just run a little N2O in your bike to clean them off a touch. lol
Best price on them suckers from this guy, cus they ain't cheep:
Boyd Bruner
Gemini Technology Systems
Jordan Suzuki
Boydo@23Race.com
I'll be picking a set up for the little busa Project. I hear they run nice and cool, but like a little extra from that blue juice box your getting.
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 24, 2009 04:31 PM
quote:
Karl 1-4 run leaner than 2-3 on a zx12
did you get the box?
yep, got it, thanks, Johnny!
I'll send you some do-rey-mi on tues
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 24, 2009 04:36 PM
quote:
Oooooh - that's an ethereal background!
It's a little more difficult to read surface gap plugs because they don't have a ground electrode, but I'd say, colorwise, that the plugs look good. The porcelain shows just a hint of color and the base ring is medium brown/gray, just like it should be. You certainly aren't too lean...
Were the exhaust ports uniform in color, or were the outer ports lighter, too?
now that you mention it, the plugs look like they are in heaven.
what is the base ring? Is that the outer electrode?
I was looking at the mottled pattern on the inner plugs.
The motor was running uber-rich bc the the dyno room was 110F
I didn't pull the pipes as i have the experiment with ARC-2 scheduled for next sat; the blue box gary irefers to.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
|
posted May 24, 2009 06:54 PM
110F ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and 98.9% Humidity, brutal combo. When not running the Dyno, Andy should give you a hand towel and charge day spa prices while you all lounge around in that sauna!!!!!
____________
TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
|
posted May 24, 2009 07:26 PM
quote:
Oooooh - that's an ethereal background!
It's a little more difficult to read surface gap plugs because they don't have a ground electrode, but I'd say, colorwise, that the plugs look good. The porcelain shows just a hint of color and the base ring is medium brown/gray, just like it should be. You certainly aren't too lean...
Were the exhaust ports uniform in color, or were the outer ports lighter, too?
+1
I don't pay much attention to the electrode, I am more interested porcelin and base ring as well....
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted May 24, 2009 11:10 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 25 May 2009 07:29
Yup, the base ring is the area below the threads and, in surface gap plugs, also forms the ground electrode.
Again, surface gap plugs are a little more difficult to read, but I think the mottling might be evidence of slight detonation. As I recall, detonation was the root cause of your last TXM motor failure, right? Have you changed anything in your setup since then?
It's difficult to see from the low-res image, but it looks like the edges of the center electrodes on #1 and #2 might be slightly eroded with a clean heat ring around the edge, and the inner edges of the base ring are blasted clean, which may indicate too much ignition advance.
You know, there's uber-rich and then there's uber-rich. My stinking Bazzaz system keeps telling me that my fuel map is way too stinking rich, and to continue to lean things out. However, in order to get good throttle response, along with spark plugs and exhaust tips that don't look like they came off of Michael Jackson's Albino Freakshowmobile, I have to run in the indicated 11.7 to 12.0:1 AFR range. Granted, the NASCAR spec fuel is partially to blame because I think the flame speed is too slow for a non-pushrod motorcycle engine, but still, sometimes it boils down to the fact that all of the circumstantial evidence and all of the dyno runs can't properly simulate or accurately predict real-world performance. Anyway, you need to get rid of the detonation that killed your last motor, whether its origin was ignition, fuel, hotspots, etc., and get your timing to a good baseline before you begin to sweat the details of your fuel map. Getting the mixture right on a detonating motor is like the proverbial deck chairs or the proverbial dull turd, whichever you prefer.
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted May 25, 2009 06:52 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 25 May 2009 14:54
Need to see 'em with a magnifier, but they look safely rich to me and don't show any detonation. Need a better pic. though.
Having said that, I doubt that we'd be on the rich side under actual conditions rather that the sauna you use for a test cell.
Johnny, why do you think that 2&3 show differently on a 12?
D.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 25, 2009 08:05 AM
dang, Tim & Doug BOTH dissing my beloved camera; now i'm feeling all bummed that my $95 pride & joy takes lousy pix... 
Tim,
the current set up has lower CR & looser squish, along with the new plugs.
I am still tuning the FactPro way, get timing adv to make best hp, then tweak fuel, iterate
Doug, you are right about AF differences in 110F sauna vs cool.
80F map was 12.6-8-ish
80F map used at 110F gave 11.8-ish, so i leaned it out and gained 1-3 hp
Use the 110F map at 75F and i fear AF would go (went at Texas Mile) to 14+
I thought that the temp sensor in the airbox was supposed to give the ECU info by which it changed the ECU map???
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 25, 2009 08:43 AM
i had taken a couple more pix:
cyl 1 & 2
cyl 3 & 4
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
|
posted May 25, 2009 09:00 AM
Doug the 3 12's I have checked showed 1-4 leaner then 2-3,
I probed eack pipe seperate and after I set a/f the same across all I picked up some torque and ponies.
I just fiqrued it was the staggaerd jetting like in the old carbed bike rules
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted May 25, 2009 09:41 AM
Edited By: tcchin on 25 May 2009 17:57
quote:
dang, Tim & Doug BOTH dissing my beloved camera; now i'm feeling all bummed that my $95 pride & joy takes lousy pix...
Tim,
the current set up has lower CR & looser squish, along with the new plugs.
I am still tuning the FactPro way, get timing adv to make best hp, then tweak fuel, iterate
Doug, you are right about AF differences in 110F sauna vs cool.
80F map was 12.6-8-ish
80F map used at 110F gave 11.8-ish, so i leaned it out and gained 1-3 hp
Use the 110F map at 75F and i fear AF would go (went at Texas Mile) to 14+
I thought that the temp sensor in the airbox was supposed to give the ECU info by which it changed the ECU map???
You just need to put your camera in Macro mode and take some images that are focused on the electrodes and insulator.
Lower CR and surface gap plugs will help reduce detonation, but the looser squish will not. I have no explanation for the mottling except for some kinda local disturbance like detonation splattering stuff onto the base ring. Again, the electrodes on 1 and 2 look like they got hot. If that's really the case, then you'll either need to back off the timing or change fuels.
Powercommanders always need to be adjusted for current ambient conditions. They seem to scale very poorly with the ECU's self-adjustments. FYI, back in the bad old days, we used to keep charts of altitude and ambient temp vs jetting (or density altitude vs jetting, which is easier because you can just call the local airport to get density altitude). You now have a data point for 110F and 98% RH at your altitude. You may want to start charting other conditions so you can identify your trends. CR, cam timing and ignition timing will have slight effects on fuel maps, but not as much as density altitude.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 25, 2009 10:21 AM
my camera was in macro, but maybe i was sloppy.
That bastage camera cost me $95!!!!!
Now I am keeping track of maps by temp, but will switch to DA like you say; good tip.
I'll need a cute lil DA meter, does McM-C have one???
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted May 25, 2009 02:28 PM
http://www.kestrelmeters.com/Kestrel-4250-Racing-Weather-Tracker.pro
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 25, 2009 03:52 PM
quote:
http://www.kestrelmeters.com/Kestrel-4250-Racing-Weather-Tracker.pro
$259...
hmmmmm...
that's cheaper than a set of pistons
Thanks!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
|
posted May 25, 2009 04:06 PM
or $199 http://just4electronics.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=695
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 25, 2009 11:25 PM
quote:
or $199 http://just4electronics.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=695
that'll work!
thanks, Tim!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
|
posted May 26, 2009 07:29 AM
Cool thread!! Lots of great info here. Thanks for the tip about the copper gaskets falling off.
That is a cool little weather station too.
|
woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
|
posted May 26, 2009 10:43 AM
@entropy
nice plugs !
how much for a set ?
____________
1st TFA Member / Austria !
" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 26, 2009 11:30 AM
quote:
@entropy
nice plugs !
how much for a set ?
hey woppi,
Sorry we didn't get to see you on yr recent trip to USA 
next time!
those plugs are about $160/set.
Are they worth it?
Hell yes, i gained 50hp!!!!! 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
|
posted May 26, 2009 02:38 PM
I use a simple air density meter (reads in % of Std.) Available from Kinsler. It misses relative humidity but you can adjust that from a chart. Relative humidity is not a real big factor N/A. (Effects of total water grains are compounded with boost). At Bonneville, you will see Kinsler meters sitting in most pit areas.
It's linear- A 5% change of the air density at baseline requires a 5% change in fuel flow.
Density altitude is an easy read from any number of aviation computers (paper charts or electronic) if you know the temp and altitude of the racetrack.
Several ways to skin this cat, but it is VERY important info.
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted May 26, 2009 10:31 PM
quote:
I use a simple air density meter (reads in % of Std.) Available from Kinsler. It misses relative humidity but you can adjust that from a chart. Relative humidity is not a real big factor N/A. (Effects of total water grains are compounded with boost). At Bonneville, you will see Kinsler meters sitting in most pit areas.
It's linear- A 5% change of the air density at baseline requires a 5% change in fuel flow.
Density altitude is an easy read from any number of aviation computers (paper charts or electronic) if you know the temp and altitude of the racetrack.
Several ways to skin this cat, but it is VERY important info
Doug,
we ain't gonna be guessing at Loring
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
|
posted May 27, 2009 03:04 AM
-------
hey woppi,
Sorry we didn't get to see you on yr recent trip to USA
next time!
those plugs are about $160/set.
Are they worth it?
Hell yes, i gained 50hp!!!!!
@entropy
i am verry verry sad -- that we could not meet us !!!! my failure !!! sorry
where do you get these plugs ???
____________
1st TFA Member / Austria !
" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC