Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 05:51 PM
Kill Time vs. ET?
If you change from say 60 ms to 70 ms kill time, how much will you typically see in ET change? R&D has a "pro cut" trans that it is suggested you run 50 ms (as opposed to 70 ms).
Is there any "rule of thumb" on how kill time affects ET? I'm talking about stock motored bikes.
Shane
  
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almost_les
Zone Head
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posted May 02, 2009 06:24 PM
this is something i've been wondering about too
btw: digging the new avatar
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:07 PM
yeah, just do the math  if you run 5 gears in the 1/4, thats 4 shifts,
4 x 0.050=0.20
4 x 0.070=0.28
almost a tenth from 70 to 50, if you run 6 gears its a full tenth
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 07:13 PM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 3 May 2009 03:16
The bike does not stop moving during the shifts, so you can't figure it like that. You are basically coasting for an extra .08. But the ET difference will be less than that.
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:25 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 3 May 2009 03:25
i wouldnt really worry about it then, you arent in any high dollar grudge matches are you? whats half a tenth? you can make that up in other areas. try out the spraybar!
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:28 PM
you would need to know acceleration at each shift, and how much it decelerates during the amount of kill time. all of which is affected by driver, conditions, rpm ect ect
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 07:30 PM
I'm only interested because I see a big deal made out of kill time. I've added some to my bike, and I don't see where it is a big deal for my app. *Maybe* .02 difference in ET? I'd rather have the reliable shift than try to set the kill real low.
What got me interested was talking to Mark at R&D. I am probably sending him a spare 14 trans to work over, and the pro cut is an option for a racing app.
Shane
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 07:35 PM
I noticed my trouble shifting would be when the bike was real hot. I am also running 87 octane. I wonder if the heat and low octane fuel require a little extra kill...maybe it has a little "run-on", when real hot, between shifts?
Sounds crazy...but possible?
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:40 PM
I was talking to Nox about that sort of thing awhile back, basically he told me not to bother trying really low kill time unless i was on a very very well preped track. missing a shift trying for that partial tenth just isnt worth it, especially if you are going rounds. 65ms has worked very well in my bike. no problems, but it has a R&D work over too so im not sure how much that has to do with it. Mark never mentioned anything about reducing the kill time when we had our 12R trannys done
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 07:42 PM
It may not be an option on the 12R...this was for the 14 trans...
What do you think about my above thoughts on kill time/low octane/hot motor?
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:42 PM
where is your switching valve located in relation to the air ram? are you using any delay?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted May 02, 2009 07:45 PM
im not exactly sure what you mean by "run-on"?? like its lighting off the exh valves instead of the (killed) spark plugs? or do you use fuel kill?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 07:49 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 3 May 2009 03:49
Delay, you mean as in additional kill time because of the proximity of the solenoid to the ram? My kill box just has a kill time setting...
This problem only occurs when the motor is hot as hell. My setup was 12" from the ram...but now it is like this:
I have done this, and added some extra kill time for my next outing.
Yes, like the hot cylinder and low octane fuel has some combustion after the spark is killed. I'm just trying to figure why it only happens when the engine is real hot. Could be something else, just thinking out loud.
Shane
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 07:57 PM
not additional kill time, that stays the same, but if the switching valve is located away from the air ram (like you had it before at 12in) the delay is the amount if time between when the switching valve is activated and the engine is killed. if your sw valve is a foot away it needs to be activated a certain amount of time before the engine is killed because it takes a few ms for the air to actually move the air ram after the sw valve is opened. mounted like you now have it, you really dont need any delay, mine is pretty much like the above pic
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted May 02, 2009 08:00 PM
So, your kill box has delay and kill adjustments? Mine just has kill...
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 08:12 PM
yup, its the Schnitz PPI
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 02, 2009 08:13 PM
I imagine with a simple box like mine, you just add a little extra kill.
Does Schnitz still make the box?
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KZScott
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posted May 02, 2009 08:43 PM
im not sure, i didnt see it last time i was looking for them(couldnt remember what i paid for it) but mine is for sale since i got the nlr 2 step with a built in kill box
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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NOX
Needs a job
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Posts: 3745
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posted May 03, 2009 04:15 PM
If you have a pro cut tranny, you can shift with no kill time..............
as in, the kill box wire going to the coils was unhooked, /broken.........
It will lift the front wheel in 3rd, and it will make you think something is wrong...........
but, it probably would not be a good idea to do all the time...........lol
On a good track, I have run 50 ms. I think since I just got my shock back from LE, it will be a lot better..............
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06redzx14
Pro
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posted May 04, 2009 08:06 AM
kz how much delay are you using i have the same box never played with the delay
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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KZScott
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posted May 05, 2009 02:05 PM
none because the switching valve has a tiny tiny connector between it and the air ram. shorter distance than the 90 degree in Shanes pic. if it was a few inches away i would start adding delay
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted May 05, 2009 02:49 PM
quote:
none because the switching valve has a tiny tiny connector between it and the air ram. shorter distance than the 90 degree in Shanes pic. if it was a few inches away i would start adding delay
I better add 20ms to mine, because the connector is so long.
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KZScott
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posted May 05, 2009 04:58 PM
maybe even 25 lol
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
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