whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted April 21, 2009 06:50 PM
do you have a special method of centering the telescoping gauge in the bore?
i have a set of those (albeit the cheapo MSC stuff) and i can't ever seem to get the damn things perfectly centered.. i rock em and keep m dead level and ever time i lock them to extract and take a measurement, i end up seeing a gap between the end and bore.. like i was JUST shy of the center and that .002 or so didn't show up.
tricks? 
i can get it after several tries, but i don't have time for several tries. i want consistency and the same number every time i do it!!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
  
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 21, 2009 09:32 PM
I've never had that problem with mine, but it sounds like a friction thing. Make sure your gauges are well-maintained, and maybe even apply a little light-bodied lubricant (WD-40, Kroil, etc.) to the piece you're trying to measure.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 21, 2009 10:33 PM
All very interesting, but a few things don't ring true with my personal experience. I've been using Mitutoyo dial bore gauges since 1970 and have never seen one "poke into" a bearing more than a tenth, if that.
When measuring the thickness of shells I use the small ball bearing tips on my mics and "the math method" works perfectly. But remember -it doesn't account for "out of round". you can only find that with a bore gauge.
Remember, the bearings depend on the crush exerted on the ends when the rod cap is torqued for proper fit and a small variance here can have quite an effect on roundness.
To me snap gauges are all but worthless for measuring bearings, almost impossible to get consistent, accurate readings due to the friction of the soft material and the reluctance of the gauge to self center. In addition you have the secondary error possible when measuring the snap gauge with the mic. I hate 'em for doing bearings. But then, that's just me.
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 22, 2009 04:04 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 22 Apr 2009 12:06
I prefer measuring the rods with the bearings that are going to be used, in place. As Doug said, crush and distortion under torque happens.
When measuring as an assembly, you get the advantage of a few things over measuring the individual parts.
You get to see if there is any problems with the assembled rod and bearing, like, taper, cap shift, any out of round, and the actual oil clearance.
Also when measuring rods and cranks, don't measure hot parts. Even the heat from holding a rod in your hands for 10 minutes while on the phone can change the measured part size. The same goes for pistons.
When we hone rods the honing oil keeps the rod at a constant temp.
I wouldn't use "snap" gauges. Its way too hard to get consistent readings.
You need to have a set of certified calibration blocks to set your mics and bore gauges to. Without them you can be very consistently off. Check your mics often to the standard.
And the temperature of the mic or the bore gauge in your hand can change the readings.
Sounds anal but its important when you start talking about accurately measuring .0001"
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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krexken
Zone Head
Posts: 732
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posted April 22, 2009 04:41 PM
I got one word for you fellers- Plastigauge rules!
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 22, 2009 04:54 PM
...Uh, that's two words.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted April 22, 2009 05:31 PM
quote:
Where is a good place to purchase this adapter?
Thanks
i didnt look up Tims part number, but what i have is basically a rubber piece that holds a steel ball on one end.
note the taper, i didnt know what was going on till i found out they were supposed to be tapered.
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted April 22, 2009 05:49 PM
Doug and Jim.. you both pointed out what i've kinda felt about telescoping gauges..lol
Tim, these are brand new gauges.. they're always in their case after use.. like. .th eminute after use.. i have a habit of running to the toolbox 50,000 times because i put thigns away like that.. wrenches and all may lay out, but my dial indicators, calipers, mics, all my precision shit always goes back home immediately after use.. they were calibrated when i was a machinist and i'm gonna guess they're still accurate. i could probably have a buddy that still works for the machine shop i was at to get them re-certified.
i was kinda thinkin of investing in something like this
http://catalog.starrett.com/catalog/catalog/groups.asp?GrpTbl=2&GroupID=224&GrpTab=Spec
whatcha think?
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 22, 2009 08:11 PM
The problem with the three-point gauges is that you can't measure eccentricity with them. That, and they're hideously expensive.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 22, 2009 08:15 PM
Scott - the range of sizes that's assigned to the bearing colors represents manufacturing tolerances, not taper or runout. In other words, the midline thickness of a blue rod bearing could vary from 1.485mm to 1.490mm and still be within tolerance. Any thinner, and it would be painted black. Any thicker, and it would be scrapped.
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted April 22, 2009 08:33 PM
are those stock bearing types? i was wondering if i should run aftermarket bearings in zee turblow motor.
theres NO info on the damn 7-R  it's all experimental i think at this point.. at least for me.
Tim.. adopt me and help me with my build.. i'll buy you beer and clean your house or somethin. lol
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
|
NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted April 22, 2009 09:31 PM
I built my motor, just as the book said. We did not even bother with the bore guage, since the book says to just look at the markings on the block......, and it was unscathed.......
miced the rods, miced the crank, put the browns in, bike runs hard....., can't complian.
I know this is a little rough, but, if you think the guy in the shop at the dealer is doing more, you are nuts. They do what the book says , and thats it.........
now, for a full built motor like Karls.........., thats a different story I would think.........
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2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 22, 2009 10:34 PM
There's what the book says, and then there's what the book says. Many manufacturers are sufficiently involved in racing that they issue "kit" manuals to their support teams. These racing-specific manuals include updated procedures, part numbers, tolerances, etc. that are not in the factory service manual. Many include such details as squish, cam timing, cylinder head porting and bearing clearances. Also, I've found that cases, cranks and bearings are often mis-marked or out of tolerance, and that just going by the markings isn't always the safest thing to do. That's why I build all of my own stuff and measure everything twice, even if it's fairly pedestrian, rulebook-compliant stuff. It's always cheaper to catch out-of-spec parts on the bench, before they're installed. One bad bearing can frag an entire motor, cause a wreck at speed or even injure/kill the rider.
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NOX
Needs a job
PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted April 23, 2009 05:02 AM
Very true.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted April 23, 2009 01:51 PM
quote:
Scott - the range of sizes that's assigned to the bearing colors represents manufacturing tolerances, not taper or runout. In other words, the midline thickness of a blue rod bearing could vary from 1.485mm to 1.490mm and still be within tolerance. Any thinner, and it would be painted black. Any thicker, and it would be scrapped.
yup, i was not trying to imply that the ranges were linked to taper, that was just the background on the pic. i was showing the taper of that particular shell by mic'ing it in 3 places 
i measured them all and matched up similar sizes within the range
OEM bearings whitey
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted April 23, 2009 06:34 PM
quote:
All very interesting, but a few things don't ring true with my personal experience. I've been using Mitutoyo dial bore gauges since 1970 and have never seen one "poke into" a bearing more than a tenth, if that.
+1
I'm doing a build right now. I can see very little indentation from the gauge.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 23, 2009 09:20 PM
Rob,
please be so kind as to:
1. measure the ID of a bare rod tq-ed to spec,
2. mount bearings in that rod, measure the ID
3. measure the thickness of the bearings
compare:
a) ID of the mounted bearings
b) ID of the bare rod - thickness of the 2 bearings
maybe something is wrong w/my bore gauge (close to same model as yrs)
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted April 23, 2009 11:22 PM
quote:
quote:
All very interesting, but a few things don't ring true with my personal experience. I've been using Mitutoyo dial bore gauges since 1970 and have never seen one "poke into" a bearing more than a tenth, if that.
+1
I'm doing a build right now. I can see very little indentation from the gauge.
I use a Mitutoyo 511-163 or a Fowler 52-646-400-0 bore gauge set with a Mitutoyo 543-263b indicator, depending on the size of the item I'm measuring. I set up the gauge so that it has minimal preload at the target measurement value. Being as careful as I can be, this setup leaves scratches in the bearings that are clearly visible after measurement, and are still evident after the bearing has been used. I estimate the depth of the scratches to be in the 3-5 tenths range.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 24, 2009 01:55 AM
quote:
I estimate the depth of the scratches to be in the 3-5 tenths range.
in line with my .0008-.0009 total difference.
I am REAL interested in what Rob measures, he is a careful guy.
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