TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2009 09:18 AM
EGT help, KZScott, Mr. Hill, Mr. Meyer, Others?
Just received my new toy. EGT temp sensor! For those who have run EGT's with N2O I have a few novice questions. First I have a little cheap KOSO meter that has a range of 250F - 2100F. It is back lit in Blue and will change to red and flash when a desired/undesired temp is reached. The application will be for a ZX-12. I will also be probing only one cylinder at this time. In the instructions it says to mount on the top side of the header and 6" away from the piston skirt out (EGT sensor was intended for a snow sled), or what ever your application calls for. On a ZX-12 is there a best placement for the probe with regard to one cylinder over another and/or best routing? Also how far down the header pipe would be considered appropriate for a ZX-12?
Second question, setting the warning light to turn red and flash. I was considering setting the warning light at 1380F. As I want to give myself some time to respond by taking my thumb off the button. Would you all think this is too high a number, too low a number, and/or would not give me enough time to react. Keep in mind I am not the brightest and am getting a little old.
Thanks,
Gary
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Shane661
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posted March 12, 2009 09:33 AM
Gary, I can not comment on the temp..
But if you can set a warning light to flash, you can also set the solenoid to close via a relay, automatically. Just something to consider..
Shane
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2009 09:51 AM
Wow, I did not think of that. That would be a nice feature, the only problem is it's digital and probably run directly off the circuit board..................but I'll check KOSO and see if they have something to read that with.
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entropy
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posted March 12, 2009 10:53 AM
gary,
are you set up to log AF on the 12 yet??
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 12, 2009 11:11 AM
No, I have been looking into it, but I think quite a bit of the stuff that was going on my bike will be going onto the designated Race bike. I think the last time I ran juice the A/F was good, but the EGT was too high for the valves to handle.
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VincentHill
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posted March 12, 2009 12:23 PM
Dr. Gary, I mounted mine on #4 Cylinder and on the right side on the pipe about 1.5 to 2 inches from the Cylinder Head (Just Past the Spigot for the headers! Mine uses a Hose Clamp.
EGT should be between 1,100 and 1,400 HOT 1,350 is very good and over 1,400 is Very Bad!
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Johnnycheese
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posted March 12, 2009 06:53 PM
Gary just use my LM-1
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whitehendrix
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posted March 12, 2009 10:21 PM
the closer the better within reason to the port. they rely on heat for an accurate measurement.
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KZScott
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posted March 12, 2009 10:35 PM
rgeorge has some good pics of his setup.
ive decided to only run a big shot in the 1/4 and back it off 20-40 hp for lsr until i can get a new datalogger and log temp from all 4 pipes(2010 might see water meth injection with a big shot)
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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aliveagain
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posted March 13, 2009 04:16 AM
On diesel engines, they only recommend upto 1300* with spikes passed that.It's not hard with 40lbs.of boost.Going lsr,I would think that a prolonged shot might be too much.On the truck, I have mine about 2 inches from the head to keep an eye on what the piston is seeing.
On the bike,I wonder if the readings would be different on the back side of the down tube as oppose to the front.
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entropy
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posted March 13, 2009 09:21 AM
quote:
Gary just use my LM-1
x10!!!
listen to JC, he knows of what he speaks!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2009 09:44 AM
Thank you all much,
Gary
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VincentHill
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posted March 13, 2009 12:21 PM
I USE a LM1 Data Logger and simply attached the EGT to it! Dr. Gary needs to start somewhere!
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 13, 2009 01:50 PM
Yes, I really need to. I think I have finally come to that realization.
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KZScott
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posted March 13, 2009 02:45 PM
next time you are on the dyno and spraying find the hottest pipe. if you just use one thermocouple put it on the hot one. that way the other 3 will be cooler than the max temp you read. unless of course theres a problem, which is why you should eventually go with 4
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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texanzone
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posted March 14, 2009 05:10 AM
Gray on my Dodge {diesel} I canpeg the egt 15 or 1600 at will,need more air,.You good for a short time with more temp.I have 1\4 mile raced it no problem.You can pass your hand over a flame and get warm but don't hold it there.Having said all that I sure the diesel pistons are heavyer made than gas ones.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 14, 2009 12:12 PM
OK,
Here's the deal-
The thermocouple should be as close to the header flange "as practical". This means as close as you can get it without embarking on a major R&D program. All should be equal if you are going to compare data.
The standard "Industry standard" limits for SPARK IGNITION, GASOLINE engines at maximum CONTINUOUS load are 1380 to 1560F (750-850 C). Of course your expensive parts make that limit higher, but how much? Only your wallet knows. "Spikes" can go higher, but the higher the spike, the shorter the time permitted, of course. Problem is, there are no "specs" for this duration in the auto/motorcycle industry. The closest info I could give you as an example is that, in the Turbocharged TSIO-550 aviation engine (550 cubes/350 continuous hp) the limits are that you cannot operate a PEAK temp for more than 30 seconds.
Something to watch for that you may have not considered is that if you plot the EGT vs fuel flow you will find the same temps on either side of peak. That is, it's a"bell curve". So, you can be at 1500 rich of peak and also 1500 lean of peak. On the rich side the temp is dropping because of inefficient combustion. On the lean side it is due to insufficient fuel. This isn't a problem if you're gathering data on a dyno because you are creating the plot. BUT doing "real time" tuning at the track you are faced with what I call a classic Eastwood Dilemma. When you look at that EGT and you wonder "Am I rich or lean?", you get the EASTWOOD- So pick- Do you feel lucky today, punk? Well do ya? Lean or Rich?
Regarding the installation at hand, I see the main problem as one of reaction time. When you hit the button and the EGT goes to 1750 in 500ms and your "device" senses that and lights the light or moves the needle and you notice that and then your brain says "Oh shit" and tells your finger to get off the button, it's probably too late. rYou next move will be to remove the pistons.
BTW the Industry EGT standards for Diesels are (interestingly) lower at 1025-1380F (550-750C). Has to do with the higher "specific heat" (energy contained within) the gasoline.
Doug
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2000redrocket
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posted March 14, 2009 05:29 PM
doug the last sentence do you meen diesel in the higher energy? instead of gas?
on my dodge i have the probe after the turbo. i add 350f to the gage and do not have to worry about fod damage. just my choice while i was pulling my truck for 5 years.
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whitehendrix
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posted March 14, 2009 08:42 PM
so with that all being said, i guess the very best way to monitor EGT would be in conjunction with a wideband then? that way when you see "1500" you'll know what side of that bell curve you're on by looking at the A/F whether it IS rich or lean.
???
i wasn't planning on running a pyrometer on my bike but you're all making me reconsider now.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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KZScott
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posted March 14, 2009 11:20 PM
thats the way i understand it WH
IMO, run 4 of one and 1 of the other so you have data from all 4 cylinders. some guys log AFR from each cylinder, some do EGT from each. i think the cheapest way to get data from all 4 is a wideband after the collector and a thermocouple on each header tube. the best setup would be of course 4 and 4, but at least 1 of something is better than nothing! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 15, 2009 08:24 AM
Thank you Mr. Meyer. If I decide to go back to a larger shot I will try to do things a little better and in smaller steps, especially since I am an EGT novice. It will be fun to do a little testing. Due to time constrains I'll probably run the bike N/A at the Texas Mile this time. When I have more time I'll start on the dyno to monitor EGT and A/F with a small shot. Then move up a little by loading (electro magnetic brake) the dyno and doing an extended run for 10 seconds and see how things look. From there go in small steps up and sniff/egt each individual cylinder.
......................................But like you said it only takes a few ms to be toast.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 15, 2009 09:53 AM
That's right WH. You need to be able to relate where you are in the mixture curve to a given temp. After that, if you stay on the "rich side" rather than the "lean side" of peak you can adjust up or down (rich or lean) on the rich side and remain "safe". What you don't want to do is be on the "lean side", think you are going richer to cool it down and mistakenly raise the temp right on up to peak, As you guys point out this really should be accomplished on the dyno and you can then take that knowlege to the track where you can tune efficiently and safely.
Redrocket- I infer by your diplomatic query that you think I have it backwards. I've also "heard" the inverse, but I thought I'd dig a little deeper and get the real numbers. Fact is, they are very close and depending on the fuel used it could be stated either way. Here are the numbers: The Specific Caloric Value (in MegaJoules per Kilogram) are:
Regular Gasoline 43,5
Premium Gasoline 42.7
Diesel Fuel 40.6 - 44.4
You can convert this to BTU's if you want 1MJ=239 kilocals/kg = 430 btu's/pound
I THINK that the range listed for Diesel fuels is the root of the different opinions.
Interestingly, I also found that the ideal mixture requirements for diesel and gas are pretty close with Gas being able to run leaner - maybe this is why the temps for diesel are lower?
Theoretical Ideal A/F ratio (kg/kg):
Reg Gas 14.8
Prem Gas 14.7
Diesel 14.5
Headache yet?
Doug
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whitehendrix
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posted March 15, 2009 08:30 PM
 Edited By: whitehendrix on 16 Mar 2009 04:31
amazing.. thanks for the insight guys! i think i will now probably end up running EGT monitoring on the bike.. i kinda didn't think it was all that improtant to watch if the bike was tuned right from the start, but with vraiable boost and all.. i guess it'd be a worthy investment.
oh.. edit on my original post,, i misread and initially thought O2.. not EGT.. thus my seemingly stupid comment on needing heat to operate and read effectively..
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 16, 2009 04:19 AM
Looks like Doug has this covered... 
One thing to note.
Raising the static compression ratio lowers EGT. Higher compression engines burn more in the chamber and less out the pipe. This is good news for your exhaust valves.
Advancing the ignition timing also lowers EGT.
However, cylinder head temps go up. And coolant system load goes up.
This is why marine engines have a tough life. They run under very heavy load for hours at a time with more retarded ignition timing and are generally lower compression engines. BUT, they have unlimited cooling capacity.
Doug, what about Waspaloy? Didnt P&W use that for the valves?
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted March 16, 2009 06:59 AM
Thank you much Jim, very good info as well. I am just starting to learn a little, but you all might have to remind me a couple more times before it sinks in. lol
Anything you all might be able to share with what might be called "dynamic" compression ratio? For example, if I introduce a set amount of N20 into a system the 02 being burned has the potential to raise the pressure a set amount? I know it is somewhat dependent on fuel, timing, and motor configuration, but any generalities would be interesting.
Thank you all,
Gary
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