KZScott
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posted January 18, 2009 11:38 AM
header design
Ive been thinking of getting a Muzzy Pro pipe for my 1287 to help it flow the nitrous, but Im not convinced that the 4-1 option is the best design seeing the shift to 4-2-1 sidewinders, especially if i want to retain some street ability. Karl got me some measurements from his Pro pipe and BDE SW
muzzy ti propipe
OD's: header: 1.60" taper to 1.75", length=4.5"
header: 1.75", length = 13.5"
header: total length = 18"
4:1 collector: length = 5"
mid pipe: 2.25", length = 25"
can: 5" X 4" oval, length = 18.5"
outlet: 2.25"
BDE SW
header OD's: 1.5"mm tapering up to 1.7"mm,
2 section = 2.0", at meg inlet = 2.3"
4 -2 - 1
my bike currently has a regular Muzzy 4-2-1 street system, and dads has a Muzzy SW
Muzzy 4-2-1:
OD's: header: 1.50" about 4.5 in long then 1.60" (no tapered section, just a small pipe welded to a larger one. the taper may only be a chamfer on the inside of the pipes?)
(forgot to get 2 section, but not really needed for what im interested in)
mid pipe: 2.25"
outlet: 2.25"
Muzzy SW:
OD's: header: 1.60" till 4-1 collector (not sure why no size change?)
at meg inlet = 2.25"
My understanding is that the main "problem" with the pro pipe was that it was designed to move so much exhaust flow that a stock motor couldnt put out enough volume to keep a good velocity going out the end which hurts performance(they stated 1270cc min/high rpm) . the other thing is that its a 4-1 which doesnt seem to have the best street manners. the smaller SW doesnt work well down low either. it seems to me that the 4-2-1 is the best type.
so, my idea 
use the best "parts" from each pipe and make a custom header. I believe my 1287 is moving a fair bit more air than a stock motor, and when its being force fed nitrous, it could definately use a larger exhaust. i would basically use the pattern of my 4-2-1 but use a mix of Pro pipe and BDE SW pipe sizes.
start with the Pro pipe sizes of 1.6 to 1.75 and have the 2 section in the same location of the regular 4-2-1. use the BDE SW 2 section size of 2.0 and make it the same length as the 2 section of the regular 4-2-1. end with the same size mid pipe as is shared by the regular 4-2-1 and the Pro pipe.
Using U bends and collectors the correct size, Im confident i can cut and fit the tubing correctly, spot weld most of it with a mig, and have a muffler shop tig it up. I had originally thought that 304 ss tubing would be the best option, but then remembered that my uncles drag vette (548ci V8 900hp NA with 300hp shot of nitrous) uses mild steel exh tubing and it holds up just fine. which is good considering its half the price of ss and is much more my price range. spray it with high temp black paint when finished to combat rust. I dont think the gains would be very high NA, but im convinced it would help running a 120 shot of the giggle juice
your opinions? 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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Shane661
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posted January 18, 2009 11:53 AM
Are street manners really important to you at this point? I can't imagine they would be at 68"....
I think you would do well to stick with your current exhaust; you have much bigger fish to fry right now. You're not going to be close to maximizing your setup for quite some time...
I know, that is the pot calling the kettle black.
Shane
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chavcat
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Posts: 524
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posted January 18, 2009 11:53 AM
Scott - how about e-mailing Lang to run this by him?
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KZScott
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posted January 18, 2009 12:09 PM
Ill be able to go as short as 4 over for the street Shane
Mike, who is Lang?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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chavcat
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Posts: 524
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posted January 18, 2009 03:32 PM
Lang Hindle!
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KZScott
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posted January 18, 2009 03:37 PM
 Edited By: KZScott on 18 Jan 2009 23:42
ohh! not a bad plan
do you have his direct email? i somehow think i would get a sales rep if i went with info@hindle.com and they might get offended by all the Muzzy talk :P
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted January 18, 2009 03:56 PM
Here's the pic you requested, M14 Sidewinder...
Shane
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KZScott
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posted January 18, 2009 04:38 PM
thanks Shane! 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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chavcat
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posted January 18, 2009 05:37 PM
Scott-you may actually get through to Lang or his son via e-mail. Give it a try!
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NOX
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posted January 18, 2009 05:41 PM
The pipe on my bike is the original brock sidewinder, dyno test unit........
It has been on one of Karls godzilla motors.........., before I bought it from brock.........
Karl will chime in I am sure on this one, he has some comparos vs a muzzy pipe..........
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
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Sponsored by:
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dougmeyer
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moderated
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posted January 18, 2009 06:08 PM
The sidewinder 4-2-1 pipe size was spec'ed for larger engines only, operating in a drag racing power band only and the meg and shape were built entirely to allow minimum ground clearance. It's my recollection that the compromise was in favor of the ground clearance issue. Makes sense when you think about it. The much better 60' times from the lowered bike are more valuable than a couple hp.
The pro pipe was a max hp 4-1 design with peak power being the main concern.
Shane has got it right. Tend to the big issues first, then nibble at the small fine points.
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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NOX
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posted January 18, 2009 07:36 PM
I know 4 2 1 pipes have been around forever, but who built the first 4 2 1 sidewinder?
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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posted January 18, 2009 09:56 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 19 Jan 2009 05:59
Im not putting a sidewinder on my bike, and i dont want the negative side effects from the pro pipe to gain extra hp. I think my bike would really benifit from a larger header when im force feeding it 120 hp worth of nitrous. (its getting 1mm os valves and the ports have been opened up quite a bit) i really dont see how it would be a big deal to copy the Muzzy pipe im using with larger spec tubing. (i made a dual exhaust for my truck)
for comparison the 2 section of my Muzzy pipe is 1.75 vs the 2.0 of the BDE SW
I got Shane to post the pic of the M14 so i could see the tapered section(i remembered seeing it awhile back, but it was no longer in the post), i think its a much smoother transition than my pipe, a feature I would like to incorporate into my design since the Pro pipe and BDE SW use a tapered section instead of just putting 2 different sized pipes together
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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KZScott
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posted January 19, 2009 04:10 AM
I emailed Hindle. asked to talk to Lang or his son or someone who whorks in the R&D department. told them what i have, what im doing, what my idea is ect and asked for any pointers. I asked about their step tube too. I told them how good the Hindle by Brock SW was so hopefully they forgive me for mentioning Muzzy so much.
Im suprised Mr X Dot hasnt commented on this topic, i would think it would be right up his alley. Tim you must have played with different exhaust setups on bikes over the yrs?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 19, 2009 04:16 AM
quote:
Im suprised Mr X Dot hasnt commented on this topic, i would think it would be right up his alley. Tim you must have played with different exhaust setups on bikes over the yrs?
If you ask Dr Xdot nicely, he may show you the "stealth" can on his AMA race bike; true skunkworks stuff.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 19, 2009 04:30 AM
Scott, we use 3 different programs for playing "what if" with header design. Theres a lot of math involved and details of the engine that determine what the header design should be.
I recomend getting Pipemax, its the cheepest and works well. We also use EAP and Dynomation 5.
Without going into all the details of whats going on in the header of a running engine.... basically theres amplitude and timing (phasing) issues with the reflective sound waves. Then theres inertial ram effect also which has timing issues and pulse strength issues. Luckly Pipemax will take everything into account and give you good recomendations.
I've found that its right on the money as long as you enter in good data. I think hes getting $40 for it these days. But it will take all the guess work out. Dynomation and EAP are in the $400-$500 range but arnt really needed for what your doing.
Its very complex tuning a header for the optimal performance charactoristics that your looking for.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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Bawls
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posted January 19, 2009 07:35 AM
try giving kerry bryant at Area P a call or shoot a PM... I know that they build sidewinders as well and i'm pretty sure that they use a 4-2-1.
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Best 60ft: 1.42
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Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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tcchin
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posted January 19, 2009 11:51 AM
quote:
Im suprised Mr X Dot hasnt commented on this topic, i would think it would be right up his alley. Tim you must have played with different exhaust setups on bikes over the yrs?
I've been suffering from salmonella or e-coli poisoning that was liberally applied to the entree at the WSMC awards banquet on Saturday night, so my ability to sit at the keyboard has been compromised.
Most of the stuff I've played with has been for roadracing and street bikes of 1000cc or less, except for the FJ1100 and the two-stroke stuff that I was into for a long time. Although the fundamentals are the same, none of the specifics would be very applicable to what you're doing. Lately, I've just been using Akrapovic headers and midpipes with my prototype Flowmaster mufflers.
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chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
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posted January 19, 2009 02:26 PM
In my discussion with Lang regarding performance from both the side winder and step tube. he advised me the performance was essentially the same. As Doug stated earlier the lowered height and hence position/location of the overall weight with the side winder is really the difference.
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NOX
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posted January 19, 2009 02:32 PM
Exactly.
You want that thing as low as the rules will allow. If it allows 2 in, then set it at 2 in.
____________
42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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KZScott
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posted January 19, 2009 08:46 PM
Feel better soon Tim!
thanks Jim, looks like i knew less about exhausts than i though. good info. I read about the Pipemax progrom some.
Mike, I got a reply from Lee @ Hindle. turns out the Brock SW was based on the step tube, and they use the same size tubing. so now Im in the market for a used Hindle step tube, and have a Muzzy for sale
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
chavcat
Zone Head
Posts: 524
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posted January 20, 2009 03:50 PM
Scott - that is consistent with what both Lang and his son told me.
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