KZScott
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posted January 13, 2009 12:42 AM
surfacing/lapping cylinder blocks
Jim mentioned awhile back that its a good idea to lap the block and cylinder head in a heavy nitrous motor. Ive been thinking about this, and wondering how much material is removed by the process? .001"? enough to have a measureable effect on squish and PTV?
when we had dads damaged stock block bored to 86mm, Millennium said it needed to be surfaced as it looked to be weathered or rough. Im not sure if they lapped it or not after any machining, but theres no comparison between my block and his. (Ill get some pics later) his is super shiny and mine is rather dull. I had no headgasket issues but since im adding another 30hp worth of nitrous this yr, Im wondering if I should go ahead and put the block in the box to Jim to be lapped when I eventually get my stuff going...
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
  
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tcchin
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posted January 13, 2009 12:56 AM
 Edited By: tcchin on 13 Jan 2009 08:58
If you don't have a granite inspection table, and most of us don't, you can use some 400 and 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, sequentially, on a heavy sheet of glass or polycarbonate. Using a figure-8 motion and even pressure, swoop the cylinder head over the sandpaper until an 8uin RA surface is achieved. (There are many online references for estimating the uin RA scale, but you'll know a good surface when you see it.)
There are other methods to achieve functionally equivalent results, like the one with the Garage Barbies, valve lapping compound and Astroglide, but I think the sandpaper and the sheet of glass technique is probably a little more reliable. YMMV.
BTW, only an RCH is removed by lapping.
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entropy
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posted January 13, 2009 02:02 AM
Edited By: entropy on 13 Jan 2009 10:04
I always lap block & head (DaveO advice), even when freshly milled/ground.
Every build.
Drives Andy crazy, says i am wasting my time.
I also keep a record of block height.
The impact of lapping is not possible for me to measure, like TChin says a RCH, maybe even a downy, peach smelling, Paris Hilton BCH.
I use a 6" x .5" x 1" machinist's block i found in my Granddad's 90YO toolmaker chest, wrap it w/600 grit paper, spray it w/WD40 and gently sand the head (valves out), then do the block, putting min time over the skinny areas between the cylinders.
Pop the head and block in the dishwasher ahd GTG.
I don't know what a 8uin RA surface is, but in a very little time the surface will have a uniform appearance.
I used to have a buncha HG problems, talked to DaveO, starting using the method above & haven't had a problem since.
Also when assembling, i am uber careful cleaning the mating surfaces w/brake cleaner and assuring the HG is absolutely clean, no oil film
All probably overkill = OCD 
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 13, 2009 04:57 AM
Scott, we make our own lapping plates. They are a steel plate 1/2" thick about 12" x 12" with a pair of handles. The plate is precision ground on a surface grinder so it is VERY flat.
The whole assembly is so heavy you dont even push down on it. Its wrapped with a sheet of sanding cloth.
WD40 or ZEP works well. The trick it to keep cleaning the plate often and sweep it over the entire head every motion so its lapping the head evenly.
We use it to just revmove the cutter marks from resurfacing the head.
We have these made several at a time and sell them to other shops. If any of you guys would like one I can arange it. I dont know the cost offhand. I'll take a picture of it to post.
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KZScott
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posted January 13, 2009 10:32 AM
you guys are GOOD! thanks for the help, i can probly do this with some glass very very slowly and carefully.... I really only want to build this once!
heres the pics. dads has a funny pattern in the oil from the plastic bag being taken off, mine was just misted in oil and covered with a towel, so no funny pattern. it still needs to be cleaned...
btw, I can notice when a RCH or BCH is shaved off a surface. I prefer it that way actually 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
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posted January 13, 2009 06:08 PM
Tim, you continually astound me.
Jim, you continually astound me.
Scott, you continiually astound me.
Karl, you continually astound me.
dammit !! haha.. more i have to ask and learn.
you guys lost me with the acronyms.
i've found el cheapo granite blocks thru MSC.. might not be AA toolroom grade or have a .0000005" finish, but i think they'd suffice? the next step it seems is a $600 starrett block.. lol
OH.. another idea.. talk to your local granite countertop guys in your town. oft times they'll have leftover pieces, pieces from broken sheets (transport damage, getting knocked over from wind, carelessness, ect)
i've found they're usually ground to a pretty high degree of accuracy, and best of all, they're FREE.
worst case is you pay the guy a few bucks to have it cut square and nice fot the bench.
not sure on exactly what the standard countertop finish is, but it sounds good for at LEAST small stuff like valvestem and spring height measurements and whatnot..
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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rgeorge
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posted January 13, 2009 07:08 PM
Edited By: rgeorge on 14 Jan 2009 03:09
quote:
you guys lost me with the acronyms.
acronyms are defined here http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=13&TID=36616&pagenumber=2
quote:
i've found el cheapo granite blocks thru MSC..
Shars is the best place I know of to get cheap import tools. And quality is not bad too bad!
Grade A plates: http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/5100102/Precision_Black_Granite_Surface_Plates_Grade_A
They have Grade B plates for even less $.
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KZScott
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posted January 13, 2009 07:28 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 14 Jan 2009 04:42
quote Tim and Karl
quote:
quote:
RCH is a very, very small unit of measure... It stands for Red Hair.
Irish calibration standard, often used to determine when the space between yr teeth is under spec.
LOL
interesting ideas with the granite, but I think some fairly new glass will work. (one of the shop windows comes to mind....)
anyway, im back to the shop, working on dads motor tonight. cases are just about ready to be put back together and im going to check squish on all 4 pistons
arrrrg midnight motor madness plans on hold. cases were getting bolted together when i remembered my uncle has the med sized torque wrench... gotta resplit them and clean all goop off again. needed 33ft pounds on the big case bolts, and the little torque wrench goes from 2.5 to 20 and the big one goes from 100 to 600. good practise anyway.....
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted January 13, 2009 08:43 PM
For the most part, I don't agree with lapping the head / block interface. Assuming that you are getting a precision surface (i.e., flat) the microscopic broach marks from the surfacing enhance gasket sealing and help resist gasket squeeze or creep. I think you'll find that there is often a recommended surface (roughness) spec. given in the engineering data for most gaskets.
It is kind of fun, though, It's all part of romancing the parts.
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tcchin
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posted January 13, 2009 09:38 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 14 Jan 2009 05:39
I thought gasket squeeze/creep is more of an issue with composite head gaskets than it is with multi-layer steel (MLS) gaskets. The thin Viton coatings that are common on the MLS gaskets are fragile and require a very smooth surface to maintain seal integrity. Think racing slick vs. knobbies. As Cometic recommends in its FAQ section: "A surface finish of 50 RA (roughness average) or finer, is recommended for a proper gasket seal. Anything rougher may conflict with the gasket design." Many import cars use MLS gaskets and their manufacturers recommend a surface finish of 20-30 RA (http://www.aa1car.com/library/ic697.htm).
I found this surface finish guide that lists surface finish vs. grit size for various materials. It says that 400 grit will yield a 16 RA finish and 600 grit will yield a 2 RA finish. Something in between with a little of the original machining marks still visible would probably be in the 5-15 RA range.
http://www.sunnen.com/graphics/assets/documents/e2e25e493b00.pdf
Mmmmm - romancing the parts. Cue the Pulp Fiction soundtrack!
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KZScott
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posted January 13, 2009 10:00 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 14 Jan 2009 06:10
very interesting Tim
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 13, 2009 11:57 PM
quote:
very interesting Tim
+1
I dunno where Tim dredges this stuff up from?
He's one mighty smart-fella!
"Mmmmm - romancing the parts. Cue the Pulp Fiction soundtrack!"
hmmm?... one of my favorite flics, but i don't get the connection, maybe too long since i've seen it?
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entropy
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posted January 14, 2009 12:02 AM
quote:
OH.. another idea.. talk to your local granite countertop guys in your town. oft times they'll have leftover pieces, pieces from broken sheets (transport damage, getting knocked over from wind, carelessness, ect)
i've found they're usually ground to a pretty high degree of accuracy, and best of all, they're FREE.
worst case is you pay the guy a few bucks to have it cut square and nice fot the bench.
not sure on exactly what the standard countertop finish is, but it sounds good for at LEAST small stuff like valvestem and spring height measurements and whatnot..
hmmmm....
Now that is is a good idea!
thanks WH!
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KZScott
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posted January 14, 2009 01:15 AM
quote:
+1
I dunno where Tim dredges this stuff up from?
He's one mighty smart-fella!
"Mmmmm - romancing the parts. Cue the Pulp Fiction soundtrack!"
hmmm?... one of my favorite flics, but i don't get the connection, maybe too long since i've seen it?
very smart. i think he has a wifi connection implanted in his brain. directly linked to google with 2 tabs open. one on high performance engine stuff, the other .... well ill just say adult and leave it at that lol
i dont get it either, its been awhile for me too. have to watch it again and look for that refrence
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
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posted January 14, 2009 08:55 AM
quote:
hmmm?... one of my favorite flics, but i don't get the connection, maybe too long since i've seen it?
I dunno - "romancing the parts" just kinda gave me the mental image of a guy hunched over in the dark corner of his garage, bending a cylinder head over a granite table Kobe-style, Band-Aid over its thermostat housing, using a firm-but-smooth figure-8 motion and lots of WD-40 to get what he wants. If only the Knack would have approved the use of "My Sharona" for that type of work! What could be more romantic? Well okay, polishing a fork stanchion while listening to The Cars "Moving in Stereo", maybe, but not much else.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 14, 2009 12:17 PM
The type of gasket used would dictate the finish. When GM switched over to the Gen III engines they went exclusively to MLS gaskets. The coated MLS gaskets are designed to "float" the manifolds or head druing warmup. The iron exhaust manifolds heatup fast and expand and "float" on the cylinder head exhaust manifold surface. And the head heats up faster than the block etc. So the coated MLS gaskets allow this movement to occure and still seal the head. This is why the head bolts are also special and are a torque to yield one time use. They provide the proper clamping force without inhibiting the gasket movement.
Now the old SBC with a composite head gasket like a Victor or Felpro is another story. They have a stainless formed fire ring that crushes to fit and dont tolerate movement and actually like a rougher finish to help hold them in place. They "fill in" the tiney cutter marks when they are compressed.
At the AETC confrence in Orlando this year there was quite a bit of discussion about this and the bennifits of coated MLS gaskets and how they actually work.
Ever notice that the Gen III and Gen IV GM engines dont blow head gaskets like the SBC and BBC truck engines used to in heavy duty aplications? They dont blow out the exhaust manifold gaskets anymore either. Yet the surfaces on the cylinder head are WAY smoother.
Yet when GM went to the single layer steel shim head gaskets in the 80's they had nothing but trouble. They used conventional bolts (thick) and traditional surface finishes (rough).
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whitehendrix
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posted January 14, 2009 04:41 PM
Tim. you're a sick puppy. i LOVE it!! hahahahaaha..
guess you had a "bring out the gimp" moment or two with your own *ahem* head?
HAHAHAHA
Jim.. (well, and Tim, too.) amazing stuff about gasket creep.. never heard of that before.
and the floting thing is new to me, but makes perfect sense. awesome.
more insane crap.. lol..
now, with the RCH thing.. i'm wondering.. you said it was an "irish" standard. now, i'm scottish, but do have red hair (as 13% of scotlands population does, and 2% of the U.S.) ...will that affect any measurement i take?
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted January 14, 2009 06:24 PM
I'm afraid that you're ill-equipped to produce an RCH, unless I sorely misinterpreted your photos. You haven't been on the back of Scott's bike, have you? And you can rest assured that I know absolutely nothing about an RPH standard, and doubt that such a standard even exists. That would be...icky. The closest thing I know of is a Navy Seal thing called "Spicing", but nobody has any micrometers out during that shit.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 14, 2009 08:41 PM
So what RA do you reckon you're getting with the lapping?
Romancing the parts - is a phrase that we used to throw around in engine shop when building engines is all we did all day, everyday and to this day, I cannot install a piston without sitting on a stool and spending about 20 minutes on it with a pocket knife.
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tcchin
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posted January 14, 2009 09:21 PM
Lapping with 600-grit wet/dry paper will yield something in the 5-15 RA range, depending on how fresh the paper is, how clean you keep the paper and how deep the surface scratches are. Most of the time, I get something like an 8 RA finish, according to my surface finish reference scale.
I apologize if I took your valid and time-honored phrase on a ride down the West Hollywood Highway. Believe me, between my Spyderco Delica, my triangular deburring knife and my Cratex abrasive points, I have whittled away many hours on otherwise entirely serviceable components. Not to be sexist, but I guess it's like some women and their designer undergarments: They don't perform any better than standard items, few people will ever see them or notice that they are special, but they make you feel good just knowing that they're there. Or so I hear...
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whitehendrix
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posted January 15, 2009 04:53 PM
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAHA.. tim, you're a trip man..
think thers a video out there floating around on this lapping?
kinda sounds like fun.
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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dougmeyer
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posted January 15, 2009 07:55 PM
tim,
I actually have a triangular deburring knife as well. You are the only other person I've come across that even knows what it is. Do you also have one of the half-round bearing scrapers that's curved up on the tip?
Y2, Thanks for the update on the MLS gaskets.
Doug
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whitehendrix
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posted January 16, 2009 05:52 PM
i've got a deburring knife!!
don't have the triangle tho.. have the little swivel-style curved blade in the quick-change handle.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1665030&PMT4NO=56702729
same difference tho.. does the same job. only the triangle i believe is fixed and doesn't rotate.
never saw (to my knowledge) a bearing scraper..
sounds interesting
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted January 16, 2009 06:36 PM
Hey Doug - I am lacking a good bearing scraper, but I have been shopping them lately. When you need one, you need one, and there's nothing that can replace it.
I thought I lost my triangular deburring knife once, and I was sick about it. Nothing cleans up a set of cases faster than a triangular deburring knife.
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KZScott
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posted January 16, 2009 06:41 PM
quote:
Nothing cleans up a set of cases faster than a triangular deburring knife.
ive gotta get one of those!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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