whitehendrix
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posted January 05, 2009 04:45 PM
 Edited By: whitehendrix on 6 Jan 2009 00:45
Jim, Scott, Entropy, Doug, and all you other gurus...
i'm in need of your professional opinions.
measuring stem defection and wobble, i thought of another tool to use instead of a dial indicator.. a test indicator.
i have one i used for CNC setup thats accurate to .0001 so i figured that'd be plenty good for measuring.
question is, would this setup pass you you? you think this could provide a good reading as opposed to a dial indicator? or am i learning at my own pace here and you pros already use this?
now, as you can see, this wasn't even necessary here.. flashlight in the intake port.... springs still in. DEFINITELY bent!! haha
thanks for your time!
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
  
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flite leader
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posted January 05, 2009 05:18 PM
do you have a V block
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whitehendrix
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posted January 05, 2009 05:35 PM
i do not, otherwise i would have used them 
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted January 05, 2009 05:46 PM
Edited By: tcchin on 6 Jan 2009 01:52
If you're trying to assess the straightness of a valve stem, you can chuck the valve up in a lathe or mill or even a very rigid drill press and you should be able to get what you need. V-blocks are easy to manufacture, if you want to go that route. They don't have to be particularly strong or accurate, as long as they are stable. I have a set that I made from red oak which, when oiled, is very slick and won't damage any metal surface. Remember, they only have to hold up the part being inspected, and resist the spring preload of the measurement tool.
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whitehendrix
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posted January 05, 2009 05:50 PM
i was also figuring this would indicate wobble as well correctly?
i should have made a set of V blocks when i was a machinist. i made everything else!! haha.. man.. might have to sneak into the old workplace some time and get my hands on some 6061.. wood like you just stated sounds even more feasible and easier.. no machining.. cut it out wit a saw and be done.. i like it.
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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posted January 05, 2009 05:54 PM
By wobble, do you mean stem-to-guide clearance? I don't think that you can measure that accurately if you have any doubt about the straightness of your valve stems.
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whitehendrix
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posted January 05, 2009 06:01 PM
yes sir. radial runout of the valve while still in the head and guide.
see, i initially did this thinking everything was trashed anyway. the customer said the cam gear spun on its shaft knocking timing out (on the exhaust).
the exhaust valves are fine IMO, but i don't really have a way to test and see if the gear is actually slipping.
funny thing is, the intake valves show evidence (the pic with the light escaping the port) of contact.. hard contact, yet timing was correct upon teardown.
very wierd stuff.
i wanted to basically kill two birds with one setup if i could get away with it.
i need new batteries for my hi res digital caliper and will mic the stems out tomorrow just to err om the safe side.
thanks for your input thus far man! much appreciated. still learning, here!! haha
sometimes i get ideas i think might work for certain applications.. better to trust the experts tho and get a more reliable answer than to jeopardize the build, my reputation and the customers machine..
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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dougmeyer
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posted January 05, 2009 07:33 PM
wh,
You ARE using a dial indicator to measure the wobble (guide wear). You're just not using the plunger, but the lever instead. Same same.
In a pinch, you can simply roll the valve stem on a piece of glass on the edge of the bench. Any bend in the stem will show up pretty plainly. You can also use a drill press on slow speed.
Do you know how to mark the seats? Here's the quick and dirty way-
Clean the valve face and seats real well, run a magic marker around the seat, put the valve in, pull it tight against the seat with the stem and spin it back and fourth. If you don't get a shiny spot all the way around the seat, the valve's bent.
D.
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Texas12R
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posted January 05, 2009 07:58 PM
HaHa....marks-alot is poor guys DYKEM.
I knew someone else had done it......but I did it out of necessity.
LBO...low budget operation...yep thats me.....and it works great
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tcchin
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posted January 05, 2009 08:56 PM
quote:
Clean the valve face and seats real well, run a magic marker around the seat, put the valve in, pull it tight against the seat with the stem and spin it back and fourth. If you don't get a shiny spot all the way around the seat, the valve's bent.
I hesitate to argue with Doug's considerable experience, but this technique cannot differentiate between a bent valve and a distorted seat in the event that the shiny spot is not completely circumferential. Suzuki seats in particular are notorious for going lemon-shaped over time.
If the shiny spot does go all the way around, you can be confident that the valve and seat are concentric. However, note that this is not an indication of proper valve stem/guide clearance, as the valve can center itself in the seat and still be wobbly once it's lifted.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 05, 2009 09:13 PM
That never occurred to me, I never work on Suzuki's.......
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whitehendrix
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posted January 05, 2009 09:21 PM
ok.. i was under the impression that a test indicator differed from a dial indicator based on the actuation and direction of actuation.
at least in the Starrett and MSC catalogs and all, they name them that way!! haha.
i have a couple of different little indicators, but at .0001" resolution, i figured it's the most accurate.
just wasn't sure if the way i set it up would render accurate results.
i did actually know about the magic marker.. i've used it when lapping valves. works well, but it aint no dykem.
you bring a great point up on seat concentricity. very good point.
thanks guys!! as always, i grovel at the insurmountable knowledge before me..
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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KZScott
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posted January 06, 2009 10:05 AM
quote:
i grovel at the insurmountable knowledge before me..
me too!
question for the gurus, how do you use a drill press and not damage the valve stem?
btw, wh. quad bike?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
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posted January 06, 2009 12:51 PM
BAH!! you're one of the aforementioned gurus in case that slipped by ya 
i wish i had room for all the others too1 haha.. theres soo many.
..and this particular motor in the pic is an 05 (i think..) polaris predator 500..
and it's BEAT to hell. 
this is the 3rd quad engine build in a row! i need something to break the monotony..lol
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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Posts: 867
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posted January 06, 2009 01:52 PM
quote:
how do you use a drill press and not damage the valve stem?
Chuck it lightly (mouseshit fingertight, in FL parlance) and turn the spindle by hand, not with the motor. If you're measuring valve stem runout with a dial indicator, spinning the valve with the drill press motor would be an exciting experience.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 06, 2009 02:48 PM
I sort of assumed (always bad) that one would know not to run the motor with the dial indicator in place.
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KZScott
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posted January 06, 2009 06:19 PM
thx for the clairification. would it be ok to maybe put some paper (3 strips of printer paper) inbetween the valve and chuck or could that skiew readings a lot? last thing i need is to ruin some valves trying to see if they are ok lol
might be a good idea to unplug the drill press just in case eh?
negative on guru status for me. im working on that tho this is just a hobby and im nowhere near the status of these pros. not even close. its a fun learning curve tho thinking about going to Wyotech in a yr or so to turn a costly hobby into a job. then i would be living the dream 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted January 06, 2009 06:57 PM
NEGATIVE on the guru status for me too, i sit at the feet of the guys who know what they are doing.
Doug Meyer, Tim Chin, Y2K (alphabetical order). I cannot ever repay the assistance they have given me.
But there are lotsa others here who i won't even begin to name, who really know their shit. I appreciate ALL their help (one day i will meet the psych guy )
YOU, Mr Whitehendrix, know more than you know.
A person with your experience who is continually asking questions, listening to answers, and is trying stuff, building motors, racing the mofo's is the one who will ultimately be a GURU!
The real experts I listen to are always asking questions, they are learning constantly, yep!
BTW, another source to monitor for expertise is Suzukihayabusa.org, all motor forum. It runs hot n' cold, but there are some guys there who are in the top 1%.
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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KZScott
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posted January 06, 2009 07:09 PM
Karl, you talking about psYcho?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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dougmeyer
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posted January 06, 2009 07:30 PM
KZ
Don't worry about hurting the stem. Chuck jaws won't harm it.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted January 07, 2009 06:11 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 7 Jan 2009 14:13
WH, theres some good ideas here for you for checking the valves.
We use a centerless valve grinding machine just because of its quick 1 lever in/out setup.
We can check 16 valves in a few min quickly. But the methods above work just as good.
The factory manual tells you how to use the indicator to check valve stem clearance like what you are doing in the picture. But its very important to do it exactly like the book says because the movements that your measuring will be effected by where you measure and its not giving you an actual guide clearance but a multiplied number instead due to the method of measurement. So you have to compare the measured movement to the "movement spec" in the book. Again, its not actually giving you a real clearance number. You may also notice a variation in clearance when doing this test at different clock positions. I wouldnt use this method to check runout on the valve thou. The guide cant hold it true enough.
Even if the valve is true there could still be seat issues.
As far as checking the whole assembly for a good valvejob and seal, you can do that a few ways also.
We use a seat runout gauge. And then use a marker as described above.
And you can use a special made vacuum checker and pull a vacuum on the port. Not always possable on some heads due to the flange setup.
You can also use a liquid with light test springs. Liquid testing with racing springs doesnt always work because the springs can actually bend the valves shut. But on these bike heads thats not usually a problem.
If you have a seat with a slight leak its not always a runout problem thou. Many times the seat just needs a quick lapping to remove a cutter mark. What I call a "stop line" where the insert cutter lifted off the seat at the end of the cut and left a "snow pile" like lifting the plow blade while snowplowing. This doesnt happen if you allow the cutter to light finish sweep for a few rotations before lifting it off the seat.
Lapping is very contraversial these days with arguments for its bennifits and drawbacks. But in short, one of its bennifits is it changes microscopic radial cutter chatter or defects, to annular rings or "scratches". Radial marks are very bad and anular marks are actually good.
But thats a whole topic in itself.
We get brand new assembled heads right out of the box from Edelbrock, AFR, Dart, etc. where we can see light thru the valve job right out of the box.
Take it apart and see .010" seat runout and or "stop lines".
This is the case on many brand new heads we get in sold as "ready to bolt on".
Even worse the decks are warped and they need resurfacing. Its hard to tell a customer that they need the seats cut and resurfacing on thier brand new $2500 heads. So we will bring them in the shop and show them. Theres a big difference between production machine work and custom race.
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CompetitionCNC.com
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2009 02:40 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 7 Jan 2009 22:42
Wow Y2K about the Heads! I guess the Southern California Labor Force is not being trained very well these days!
One thing I noticed was the wear of the valve on the seat which was not centered! About 1.5 MM fron the edge on the left side and over the edge on the back! That tell me something right there!
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whitehendrix
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posted January 07, 2009 05:18 PM
wow indeed!! haha.. that sucks that bolt-on ready-to-race heads have a sloppy job from the get go.
i colpletely understand the stop line thing, as this was something i learned while in the machining trade.. i was wondering if stones would be a better option. in theory to me, the would be.
also got ya on the guide play coming into effect on a stem deflection readout. what i guess would be normal valve "rock" could be misconstrued as stem tweak.. good point.. i was kinda thinking contact point pressure from loading the indicator's stylus against the stem would provide sufficient pressure to keep readings consistent, but thinking now, i guess it could still "walk" around the guide a bit..
i think i've seen soapy water (i thnik it was.. maybe gasoline?) used on a valve vacuum test once..whatever it was, it bubbled where it was getting sucked thru and you could clearly see the pool inside the runners when the suction plate was removed from the flange. i'll hafta look that one up again and refresh my memory as to what he used..
Scott and Karl, you remind me of that REAL hot ass girl that, when you comment her, she always says "no!! i'm not beautiful!!" .. simply stated, you guys (to me) know your shit and i have come to trust and respect your words by doing the research on here!!! don't be so hard on yourselves..
i've always been a fan of lapping.. even if it's INCREDIBLY light.. so as to not kill the fancy coatings on some valves. i know valves within reason kinda self-brinnel a seat over time to form and seal, but then again, i would suspect exotic seats will not brinnel as easily.
the race spring/ valve bending thig seems very scary.. again, i'd expect metal fatigue to take it's toll on a brittle metal like Ti or stainless. supposedly Inconel is a gummy, soft metal, tho i've never known it to be THAT soft in turbine wheels.. might hafta read up more on that... but i could see that if that was the case, the valve would probably permanently bend and stay?
the test to myself will come on the first dyno pull while trying to get 250Hp out of 749CC's.. hahaah. i'm just hoping i can learn what i need to learn to be a competent and consistent builder in time, and be able to apply it.. see how it all comes together ..
measuring CR and PTV seems to me simple math and playing with clay, so i don't think that will be too hard.. i have a ratty, beat up 600 motor from one of my bikes that maybe i'll build to "experiment" on..
i don't think PTV will be an issue as i'm adding .040 to the base gasket to lower CR. i guess i could then play with lift.. i just now though of that!! haha.. Hmm..
lots to learn.. i thank you all (again and always..lol) for the time you've given this.. it's much appreciated. and also as always, i'm free to a good garage or shop. picture me with a "will work for knowledge" sign kinda like a homeless guy!!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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tcchin
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Posts: 867
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posted January 07, 2009 05:27 PM
Karl's a hot-ass girl!
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osti33
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posted January 07, 2009 05:35 PM
quote:
Karl's a hot-ass girl!
LMFAO!!!!!
ARGHHHH!!! That is a mental picture i didn't need to paint. 
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