whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted January 05, 2009 05:01 PM
adopt me and take me under your wing.
i am astounded that i knew something Mr. Dave-O knew as well!! Hmm.. times like that, i feel a little more confident in my knowledge after you guys post all this crap that i spend hours researching afterwards.
i kinda thought 10psi/1krpm was a rule? i've always tried to stick with that on motors..
Hm.. awesome thread tho. thanks for puttin it all out there bossman!
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Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
  
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 06, 2009 03:06 AM
hey wh!,
There are a lot of opinions and theories about whether higher oil pressure at hi rpm helps the motor or not. I listen to everyone, and i cut n' paste their advice into a giant spreadsheet where i keep track of my builds, dyno, advice, etc.
On the oil pressure issue i chose to follow DaveO's advice. Dave's motors not only set world records, they also seemed to live forever.
Dave took me under his wing in 2002-ish, now none of the many who he helped can pay him back 
Often there is a strong divergence of position of VERY successful builders. I believe this is a testament to how much art is inherent in building real hi-po motors.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted January 06, 2009 05:15 AM
I think you have a point there Karl on stroker engines with a lot of rod angle.
The angle at which the rod is pushing on the crank on a stroker is more accute.
I think this is more aparent on the BIG stroke busas where things get even more out of wack.
Higher oil pressure may help longevity in this case.
A longer rod and moving the pin up in the piston would bring the geometry back. You would want to raise the block with that longer rod and lengthen the skirt on the bottom. This would bring the rod stroke ratio back in line with the factory and offer more piston skirt support at the bottom of the bore. A win win.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted January 06, 2009 10:14 AM
how far can you go before you need to move motor mounts and fuel rails ect and get a longer cam chain?
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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whitehendrix
Zone Head
fails!
Posts: 757
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posted January 06, 2009 01:24 PM
Entropy and Jim, you make (as ALWAYS!!) excellent points.
i've learned most of my motor stuff in the auto industry wrenching on turbo and high perf N/A cars, and that 10#/1K trend is popular, and i figured that it just plain works. therefore... use it! only in the last 4 or so years have i been working the two-wheeled sector.
i don't think i'm going back except to maybe build a badass personal car.
i wish i had an opportunity to meet Mr. Owens. it literally made me ill when i found out the terrible news..
i'd LOVE more than anything to kinda learn the art. i've gone thru great strides in learning as much as possible whenever i can and try to apply it to the bike industry. while working as a machinist, i made many specialty tools and learned how to TIG weld, thinking that would be (as well as machining in general) very useful on engine builds.. turbo manifolds and sheetmetal intakes and case repairs kinda what i had in mind.
i've gone into applying my electrical degree in whatever ways i can on my own bike and my customer's bikes.. i am so incredibly anal and nit-picky and detail oriented that often i take more time that what i quoted.. (i never charge more tho.  ) but in the end, seeing the customer's reaction is well worth it.
i think that one of the allures to engine building is that i don't fully understand it.. so, it's a challenge i'd like to meet. i was always into cars and motors and shit like that.. i've "technically" been spinnin' wrenches since i was 5 (if you count disassembling lawnmowers wrenching..) electrical and electronics was also in there.. i didn't know alot about it, therefore, i got a degree in the field. i didn't know how to weld, therefore, i learned how to weld. same with machining, CNC operation, fabrication and (basic) engine building and repair.
i mean, i can throw a motor together and it works and works well, but you guys go soo in-depth with geometries and blow-by "mapping" (an old Jim post..  ) and your (tastey) squish stick calibration and degreeing and crazy shit i never considered.
when i sit and think oil pressure Vs rod angle.. it makes PERFECT sence..i would almost assume its not a linear relationship as well.. more exponential as the stroke stretches and the axial force on the wall becomes far greater from the rod trying to push the piston sideways instead of up, i think ..oil pressure would be a great friend at this point!
i just feel intimidated and dumb sometimes reading your posts !! haha.. i know it's all in the experience as well.. if i was doing the big boys, go-hard, race shit you gentlemen have been doing for the times you have, i would probably be able to keep pace!
it just takes time.. all i can do is sit back, enjoy the show and come out of my hole every now and again with a question..
and do my homework!!
____________
Duct tape is the handyman's secret
weapon. The black is for formal
occasions. - ZRXDean
ill never own a busa unless
someone gives me one.... and then
ill sell it -KZScott
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 13, 2009 01:50 AM
I put the motor described above on the dyno on Jan 3, ran solid to 12k, but 225STD (converted to DJ hp) was not what i was looking for, so....
Tore it down and rebuilt with spare parts, some in real good shape (tight spec head, block & pistons), some not so much (crank with damage to the starter gear).
cold cranking 305-305-305-300 (50F in garage), w/CL's 107.4/110.3
I've leary about ever re-using this crank, been on the shelf for 2 years.
WTH, let's see if it works, eh?
Just another experiment.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted January 13, 2009 06:34 AM
Is that two or three for 09? Your an animal!!!! Compared to you I am frozen in time. 225HP Very, Very nice! Karl you should just have one motor in your bike and another on the bench, just swap them in and out for your experiments.
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TFA 200MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 13, 2009 07:18 AM
Only the 1st build for 2009 and am hoping NOT to do 12 builds like i did in 08.
more drinking, less building!
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted January 13, 2009 09:26 AM
quote:
cold cranking 305-305-305-300 (50F in garage), w/CL's 107.4/110.3
I thought the pistons you used this time had deeper valve pockets.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 13, 2009 01:02 PM
The intake is deeper, exh the same.
CR is down from 16.7 to 16.0 and CR is slightly up as you note; i'm thinking that the temp being 50F hi baro caused the slight incr in ccpressure where it should have gone down to 290-295.
Is this feasible?
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