entropy
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posted December 28, 2008 08:16 AM
quote:
Karl, explain to flight what squish is. He has aparently has no clue.
I could explain why most of what he says is just plain wrong and inaccurate, but I dont have time and its easier to just warn people to disreguard his posts.
I will leave it to BrendaSue to explain to flight what squish is, she has a much better understanding than he does!
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entropy
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posted December 28, 2008 08:25 AM
quote:
Beers with Mr. Sleepy, Hooters? Any talk about 1.5 Mile LSR stuff? I heard He is sending his cases up to Rick to have them massaged a little. Can't wait to see his green Busa running with that monster motor.
I don't like to skim heads, but it sure seems to keep them head gaskets perty happy.
16.7 CR sure is perty!
Mr. Entropy do you ever do any reading for leisure? If so I have a little book that has a recent story of three bikes that ran on the great white dyno. I'd like to send it to you, since there is not much else I can think of sending you that you would accept.
Thanks for all the help,
Gary
when we had beers with Sleepy we were meeting LAB's bombaybusa, his gf and billetman, not much talk of LSR, but sleepy is intending to do the Texas Mile in Mar, that much seems certin.
Skimming the head is no big deal, i think Andy only took about a thou off yrs. 
We'll see what 16.7 CR does on the dyno in a few days; i do know that i will not be able to get low CR's but at least should be able to test 108/110 or something like it. Last night i assembled the motor, maybe today i'll set lash and CL/PTV.
Yep, I sure do read for leisure, please do send send the book
(and don't be trying to hide $$ in it!!!)
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KZScott
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posted December 28, 2008 09:24 AM
Karl slow down, you're making me look bad
Carpenter recommends similar numbers to 108 110 on 1287s right? and strokers "typically" like a bit higher numbers??
tell sleepy to come up to Loring. best looking busa Ive seen (nice kawi green )
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01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 28, 2008 11:14 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 28 Dec 2008 19:15
KZ you are correct as usual, Carpenter et al rec big cam CL's but i have a buncha test data which says my motor likes little ones by a slight margin. The problem w/lil cam CL's is PTV.
no matter tho', with this last seat job i won't likely be able to get to lil numbers.
I just set up lash and i am VERY happy with the seat job Andy did.
Int target shim was 275; result ave of all 8 = 279
Exh target shim was 250; result ave of all 8 = 252
despite valves having variations, all are within .002" into the chamber, important when i take PTV tight.
I am way over my head in this stuff, and if it weren't for TChin, Y2K, Andy, DFalcon, Meyer, et al, I wouldn't even attempt it. Downside is youse bastids is costing me a buncha dough, cause now i gotta have it "right"
This level of machine work is incredible!!!!
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2008 09:57 AM
did CL/PTV last night:
int CL = 107.7, adjusted min PTV = .049"
exh CL = 110.4, adjusted min PTV = .068"
these numbers were almost exactly the desired numbers for this test.
It's satisfying when calculations + machine work = predictions
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2008 11:01 AM
those are some big CLs! if the dyno runs are low, are you doing more seat machining to try smaller CLs? (at the cost of CR)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
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posted December 29, 2008 12:08 PM
That's why one installs adjustable cam sprockets.
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2008 12:24 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 29 Dec 2008 23:34
hes got em... or im missing your point?
nm Tim, srry
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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Shane661
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posted December 29, 2008 12:28 PM
quote:
if i might ask a ?
when one shaves the head
the valve timing changes does it not ?
Surely this must be a rhetorical question.
After all, you were taught by the best....
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted December 29, 2008 01:27 PM
KZ, TCChin was responding to Flite Leader.
Flite, I am not Entropy but the answer to your question is yes. He sets his Cams to the closest possible parameters that he likes within his comfort range. The way he compensates for the skimmed head is by checking PTV Cl's and setting his cams within his desired specs, or as close as he can get to what he likes. I am not Entropy, just my two cents.
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2008 03:11 PM
Edited By: entropy on 29 Dec 2008 23:54
Gary et al are 100% correct-o, shaving the head definitely changes cam CL's, but that's easily fixed, just re-degree the cams, but be c-a-r-e-f-u-l, shaving the head also directly impacts PTV.
What's more interesting is the relationship between head shaving, seat sinking, cam CL's and PTV; bigger CL's mean more PTV. I want the smallest CL's i can get while keeping PTV "reasonable", so it's an iterative process. set the cams, check the PTV, re-set the cams, re-check the PTV, etc.
It's not really a question of "different builders like different numbers", rather it's a question of what cam numbers the motor responds to, and where you want yr hp, mid or high rpm. I am building/tuning for LSR so i want hp 10-12K. No matter what my cams are set at, i have more hp than i can effectively use in mid range.
(OK, Dr Chin, do i have it right??? finally???)
that said...
KZ: you weren't far off on yr CR forecast, you said 16.4, it is 16.6-16.7.
But you missed the mark on cold cranking: you said 245...
It is 290-300-290-290
I would like hi CR AND low CL's AND "reasonable" PTV, AND good flow thru the head.
That's what these experiments are all about Experiments!
Just did 1st heat cycle: no leaks, squeaks, no tappin' or rappin' :'fingerscrossed
no dyno tomorrow - RATS!
In law stuff
No body bitches if i am in the garage all night, but leaving in laws watching TV while I go to the dyno is a no-no. My wife is unreasonable, eh?
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2008 03:49 PM
thx Gary, couldnt see it untill Shane quoted him
quote:
I am building/tuning for LSR so i want hp 10-12K. No matter what my cams are set at, i have more hp than i can effectively use in mid range.
thats just not fair
KZ: you weren't far off on yr CR forecast, you said 16.4, it is 16.6-16.7.
But you missed the mark on cold cranking: you said 245...
It is 290-300-290-290
damn!... good thing you have 24V! in all your expirements, when was the switch needed? (rough compression range) it was way back when it was a 1361 right?
no dyno tomorrow - RATS!
In law stuff
No body bitches if i am in the garage all night, but leaving in laws watching TV while I go to the dyno is a no-no. My wife is unreasonable, eh?
it wouldnt be a complete "Entropy holiday expirience" for your in laws to miss out on a dyno session with Andy. take them with ya!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2008 03:58 PM
some in laws like the dyno, these don't even like the garage :eyescrossed
I went to 24V with my 1375, aftermany, many fruitless experiments with bigger cables, bigger batteries, ign timing etc, etc, etc.
One of these days i'll get my wreck back to the 1/4 mile. I love being the ole fat dude smoking the kids on their 220mph Busas!
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2008 04:06 PM
do you remember the CR when you ran into hot start problems? (if its over 14:1 im not going to worry about the newish combo im going with)
you should be able to run 8.5s with that beast. then add the stealth kit on a progressive controller.... 
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
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posted December 29, 2008 05:07 PM
Scott,
I wasn't really measuring CR when i began having hot starting issues.
If I were you, i wouldn't worry about 24V until you begin having problems starting the motor when it is hot.
Soooo easy to add 24V, but no need to do it prematurely, eh?
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KZScott
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posted December 29, 2008 05:30 PM
just trying to think ahead  hijack over
question on cranking compression. yours would be even higher with lower CLs right?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
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posted December 29, 2008 09:56 PM
quote:
just trying to think ahead hijack over
question on cranking compression. yours would be even higher with lower CLs right?
maybe...
depends on how much the valves would have to be sunk in order to get the low CL's at safe PTV.
sinking valves lowers static CR & cold cranking pressure.
I am not rushing into severely sunk valves on this set of experiments
we are on the same wavelength.
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KZScott
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posted January 01, 2009 01:17 PM
got ya. are your pistons as "domed" as they could be? (custom set of JEs right?) could you have them built up even more except the valve pocket?
or could you machine the valve pockets a little deeper ? what affects compression the most? sinking the seats or removing some material from the piston?
dyno yet?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
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posted January 01, 2009 04:53 PM
Edited By: entropy on 2 Jan 2009 00:56
my pistons are peaked, could play around with pockets on the dome specific to int and exh valves, but i am not convinced that CR above what i can get now is beneficial.
dyno was same as before no improvement 
AND
i saw my oil pressure curve acting weird, it would peak at about 75psi then drop to 50's as the step progressed (over 3-5sec)
I halted the steps at 9500 cause we definitely had an oil pressure issue.
got home, and did after dyno leakdown , all fine
pulled the pan, pickup and oil relief valve.
a lil build shit on the pickup screen but certainly not clogged. changed the O rings on the lil distribution tube to the trans
Tested the oil pressure relief valve and it was opening at 70#, not the 90-100 it is supposed to.
pulled another shimmed relief valve from my junk pile and i am now back at about 95#.
next test, 46mm TB's (maybe my 48's are somehow fukk-ed??
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KZScott
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posted January 01, 2009 05:31 PM
what did you need to data log oil pressure? (something i want to look into to make sure my home made oil pans are really doing their job)
do you have ceramic trans bearings? (not sure if bad ones that can affect hp like your seeing or not?)
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
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posted January 01, 2009 09:26 PM
i log oil pressure via a pressure transducer mounted next to the OEM oil pressure sensor, with a T fitting. On the other side of the oil galley I have a tap for an analog oil pressure gauge..
I do have ceramic bearing(s) in the trans, i THINK both bearings, but at least the one on the output shaft. Pretty sure its in good shape
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KZScott
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posted January 03, 2009 08:45 PM
cool, thx
im sure you have checked and rechecked wiring, but have you thought about trying another new wiring harness?
maybe something in the ram air system?
dyno with the 46s?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
entropy
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posted January 04, 2009 01:26 AM
could be wiring??? could be something in intake, but i don't know what???
46's did 1-2hp more-ish up to 9500 where the prev test was terminated; did better than dec20 test 10-12k, but this is a different head, not apples to apples. I was expecting a 3-5hp drop at hi rpm.
go figure.
The change out of the shimmed relief valve did indeed bring oil pressure back to hi 80's at v hi rpm. At least something is being predictable.
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psycho1122
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posted January 04, 2009 08:32 AM
Entropy;
Anything higher than 80 psi could be robbing some h.p.?!? Do you need 80+ and do you need to shim your valve to get 80+?
What is the condition of your oil pump housing and rotor? My stock valve, oil pump housing and new rotor produce 80. Also, what type of oil filter do you run?
In addition, there is something to be said about intake velocity with your 46's
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entropy
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posted January 04, 2009 11:37 AM
hey psycho!
i tested a brand new un-shimmed relief valve and it opened at about 65# on the bench.
Dave Owen counseled me to run 10psi/1000rpm +/- (shimmed relief valve) if i wanted to push the stroker to high rpm. It surely robs a lil hp, but my rod bearings are looking pretty good these days and i hesitate to change.
I run OEM filter.
I dunno the condition of the rotor & housing, but i assume good seeing the psi; i'll pull it next motor job.
yes indeed, 46's may do something to velocity, but maybe not.
Both the 46 & 48 TB's pass thru the same orifice at the inlet to the head.
All I know is that the 48's have produced 3-6-ish more hp than the 46's above 10k. 2 different sets of tests a couple years apart.
I found a sm vac hose leak on the 48's when i puttem back on the bike this morning, definitely not a big deal, but "interesting" none the less.
hey psycho, you coming to the mile in March? Its just a drive accross Texas, no big deal
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