TRNorBRN6001
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posted May 06, 2008 04:29 PM
Web Cams directions:
Degreeing in your camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in its correct position. For best performance, you must degree in your Web-Cam camshaft.
The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least one inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate TDC.
Web-Cam offers a complete cam degreeing kit. Please call for more information.
If you change your timing belt or chain, tensioner, cut your head, or deck your block, you must degree in your cams.
FINDING TRUE TOP DEAD CENTER ( TDC )
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY! Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps. To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop, to stop the piston in the same position on either side of TDC and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true TDC point.
First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate TDC
Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel.
Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt.
Turn the engine by hand, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt.
Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.
Turn the engine by hand in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again.
Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads.
Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two.
Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount.
Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of TDC are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true TDC point.
Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.
After you're done finding true TDC proceed to the following
FINDING INTAKE LOBE CENTER
Remove ALL lash. With your dial indicator on the retainer or follower, rotate the engine in the direction it would normally turn, and come up to .050 inches of lift. Write down that figure from the degree wheel. This is your opening figure. This is when the intake opens BEFORE Top Dead Center. Example would be 10 degrees on the degree wheel BTDC.
Now go over the top on the lobe until your indicator is .050 inches off the Base Circle. Now you should be where the intake closes AFTER Bottom Dead Center. Keep in mind to continue turning the engine in the same direction it runs and DO NOT BACK UP. Example would be 39 degrees on the degree wheel ABDC.
You can now calculate your duration. The valve opens at 10 degrees, plus it closes 39 degrees, plus 180 degrees (the distance in degrees between TDC and BDC). Your duration at .050 inches of lift would be 229 degrees.
+ 10° Opening Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
+ 39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+ 180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
= 229° Total duration @ .050 inches of lift
You can now calculate your lobe centerline. Divide your total duration by 2 and subtract your intake-opening figure. This would normally be the smaller number of the two figures.
229° / 2 = 114.5°
114.5° - 10° = 104.5° 104.5° would be your lobe centerline.
Please Note:
If you have a low overlap cam, the intake opening may be AFTER TDC, if so, you will have to SUBTRACT that figure from the closing number and add 180. This will be the duration at .050 inches of lift.
- 10° Opening After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+ 39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+ 180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
= 209° Total duration @ .050 inches of lift
You can now calculate your lobe centerline. Divide your total duration by 2 and add your intake opening figure. This would normally be the smaller number of the two figures.
209° / 2 = 104.5°
104.5° + 10° = 114.5° 114.5° would be your lobe centerline.
FINDING EXHAUST LOBE CENTER
Remove ALL lash. With your dial indicator on the retainer or follower, rotate the engine in the direction it would normally turn, and come up to .050 inches of lift. Write down that figure from the degree wheel. This is your opening figure. This is when the exhaust opens BEFORE Bottom Dead Center. Example would be 44 degrees on the degree wheel BBDC.
Now go over the top on the lobe until your indicator is .050 inches off the Base Circle. Now you should be where the exhaust closes AFTER Top Dead Center. Keep in mind to continue turning the engine in the same direction it runs and DO NOT BACK UP. Example would be 8 degrees on the degree wheel ATDC.
You can now calculate your duration. The valve opens at 44 degrees, plus it closes 8 degrees, plus 180 degrees (the distance in degrees between TDC and BDC). Your duration at .050 inches of lift would be 232 degrees.
+ 44° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
+ 8° Closing After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+ 180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
= 232° Total duration @ .050 inches of lift
You can now calculate your lobe centerline. Divide your total duration by 2 and subtract your exhaust closing figure. This would normally be the smaller number of the two figures.
232° / 2 = 116°
116° - 8° = 108° 108° would be your lobe centerline.
Please Note:
If you have a low overlap cam, the exhaust closing may be BEFORE TDC, if so, you will have to SUBTRACT that figure from the closing number and add 180. This will be the duration at .050 inches of lift.
+ 26° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
- 10° Closing Before Bottom Dead Center (BTDC)
+ 180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
= 196° Total duration @ .050 inches of lift
You can now calculate your lobe centerline. Divide your total duration by 2 and add your exhaust closing figure. This would normally be the smaller number of the two figures.
196° / 2 = 98°
98° + 10° = 108° 108° would be your lobe centerline.
ADJUSTING LOBE CENTER SEPARATION
You may move the cam to the desired lobe center and check again. If you move the lobe centers closer together, it would normally give you more low to mid range. If you move the lobe centers apart, it would normally give you more mid to top range. Not all engines can handle tight lobe centers. Certain applications require wider lobe centers, such as stock fuel injected engines or blown applications. For our best recommendation, please call us directly.
CHECKING CLEARANCES
Always check all clearances (i.e. piston to valve, valve to valve), check for coil bind, and check retainer to guide clearance when you degree in your cams. If you need help, please call us directly. Thank you.
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted May 06, 2008 04:36 PM
Schnitz Racing - Doug Meyer
Cam Lobe Centers Explained
One of the least understood topics and regarding engine tuning and building continues to be the concept of cam timing and "lobe centers". The opening and closing process of an inlet or exhaust valve as controlled by a cam lobe constitutes a complete "event" in the cycle of the engine. Like any event, it has a beginning and an end. Naturally, then it also has a middle or center. The location of this center in relation to the rotational position of the crankshaft is known as the lobe center.
The process of "degreeing" cams allows the engine builder to place the lobe center of a cam in the correct orientation with reference to the crankshaft. The opening and closing points and resultant figures of the cam, although important, are very difficult to reference to set cam timing and are, after all, the result of where the lobe center is placed. Therefore the lobe center is used to reference cam timing. The difficulty in measuring the opening and closing points is the result of the very shallow and gradual starting and stopping of the valve motion. How do you tell just when the valve motion starts and stops? If you pick a specific amount of lift at some height beyond the initial gradual motion and always use that amount as a marker for the beginning and end of the motion, the center will always be halfway between these points. Therefore, the lobe center is computed from a timing number derived at a specific valve lift. Any lift could be used to compute this, but in the Japanese motorcycle industry 1mm or .040" is traditional. U.S. (automotive) cam grinders have used .050". This "checking height" must be used to minimize the effect of the shallow opening and closing ramps on the cam lobe. Without this, each builder's subjective notion of when movement starts would be the defining factor of timing. One picture is worth a few thousand of my words so now refer to my crudely drawn diagram for clarification.
The diagram graphically shows how these points lie in relation to the degrees of crankshaft rotation. The usable range of lobe center values for just about all commonly used engines is only about 15 degrees wide from about 98 to 112 degrees and for the engines we use, the right spread is even smaller than that. Small changes of one degree can have considerable effect on the power delivery characteristics of an engine.
Very generally speaking, the effect of moving lobe centers is as follows:
Advancing the intake and retarding the exhaust ("closing up the centers") increases overlap and should move the power up in the RPM range, usually at the sacrifice of bottom end power. The result would be lower numerical values on both intake and exhaust lobe centers.
Retarding the intake and advancing the exhaust ("spreading the centers") decreases overlap and should result in a wider power band at the sacrifice of some top end power. This condition would be indicated by higher numerical values on both intake and exhaust lobe centers. By moving only one cam the results are less predictable, but usually it is the intake that is moved to change power characteristics since small changes here seem to have a greater effect. With twin cam engines we have the luxury of moving the cams independently.
With a single cam engines you must advance or retard the intake and exhaust together, usually using the intake lobe center as the reference and only the cam grinder can spread or close up the centers when the cam is ground.
Basically, here's how it's done in the real world. I'm not going to tell you what lobe centers to use, as this varies from engine to engine, just how to determine them.
Many engine builders take lobe center measurements with zero valve lash (clearance) so that all movement can be detected. In fact, the valve lash can actually be slightly negative, that is the valve can be held slightly open by the cam with the valve in the closed position. You may also do the calculation with the running clearance at the valve. The amount of pre-load or clearance on the valve has no effect on the lobe center number but will effect the opening and closing numbers. What IS important is that, for future comparison purposes, you always do it the same way with the same lash value. It is also very important that an accurate top dead center "TDC" reference be used when degreeing cams.
Therefore, this should be checked carefully and the degree wheel and pointer set accordingly. Take a great deal of care when setting up your degree wheel, pointer, method of turning the engine, and dial indicator. A change of one degree can be significant, so accuracy is very important. A dial indicator is used to measure the valve motion in hundredths of a millimeter or thousandths of an inch. Set your dial indicator so that the plunger pushes on the retainer or tappet and moves as nearly parallel to the valve travel as possible. It is not necessary to use any particular valve, use one that allows the easiest indicator set-up and that you can easily see from the same side as the degree wheel.
I recommend that you begin with the intake cam, since the intake is the most likely to be damaged by an insufficient amount of valve to piston clearance or incorrect timing. Always start with the cam sprockets closest to the stock position. Begin with the valve fully closed and with the dial indicator zeroed. Double check the plunger movement to see that it moves freely, does not interfere with the cam lobe, rocker, or any other moving parts, and returns to zero when moved and released. Rotate the engine in the correct direction while watching the dial indicator. Stop when the pointer shows 1mm of movement. Note this number. On an intake cam, this will be a value before top dead center (BTDC). Continue rotating the engine, watching the dial indicator as the valve opens, then begins closing again. By counting the revolutions of the pointer and watching it return towards zero, you can stop when the valve lift is still 1mm before fully seated, noting the degree wheel value at this point. On the intake cam this will be a value after bottom dead center (ABDC). It is important to stop at the correct point because you should avoid turning the engine backwards as this unloads the cam chain and can result in an erroneous reading.
To compute the lobe center, you:
A. Add the two opening and closing numbers noted
B. Add 180 to this sum
C. Divide this sum by 2
D. Subtract the smaller number of the two opening and closing numbers from this quotient.
The result is the lobe center. For Example:
Intake opens (at 1mm lift) 38 BTDC
Intake closes (at 1mm lift) 68 ABDC
38+68+180=286, divide by 2 =143, subtract 38 from 143 = 105
The lobe center on this cam is 105 degrees.
The method is the same on the exhaust except the opening number will be a value before bottom dead center (BBDC), the closing value will be after top dead center (ATDC) and again, subtract the smaller number.
For Example:
Exhaust opens (at 1mm lift) 60 BBDC
Exhaust closes (at 1mm lift) 40 ATDC
60+40+180=280, divide by 2=140, subtract 40 from 140 =100
The lobe center on this cam is 100 degrees.
Note that in both cases, it is the smaller of the two numbers that is subtracted.
Also note that the 286 and 280 degree values are similar to what may be the advertised duration of the cam. This number is called the "checking duration" as it is dependent upon the checking height used (in this case 1mm).
Remember, the opening and closing values (and duration) are dependent on the checking clearance and will vary based on this amount. The lobe center number will not. This is why published numbers are not a good way to compare cams. You must always know the checking height that was used to derive those numbers.
To change the lobe center, loosen the sprocket attach bolts and move the crankshaft slightly to alter it's relationship to the cam. Retighten the bolts and re-check. When the selected value is finally reached, tighten and loctite the bolts, then re-check one more time. With a little experience you will know which way to go to advance or retard a cam to achieve the desired lobe center.
Caution:
Moving lobe centers can drastically alter valve to piston clearance. And remember, the closest point is rarely at TDC. The most critical is the intake and usually occurs somewhere after TDC. Make all adjustments in small increments and NEVER force the engine past any resistance until you know the cause.
Changes to the power output are can be subtle, hard to predict, and frankly, most of this has been explored to death so it's unlikely you will find some "new power". But each engine is different and cam timing must be part of any fully prepared engine. Be careful with following "we always did it that way" thinking.
The advent of electronic fuel injection and four valve heads has changed the cam requirements of engines. Increased valve area means less "cam" gives you more flow. On an injected engine you no longer need to create a strong vacuum signal through a carburetor throat for good fuel atomization. The injector is going to get the fuel in there instead of flow across a jet. The only way to optimize cam lobe centers is through extensive and careful dyno or performance testing.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted May 06, 2008 10:20 PM
 Edited By: tcchin on 6 May 2008 23:24
Just for the record, the valve spring compressor tool, of which Karl is sporting two, does not require modification of the cam tower or camshaft for proper operation.
Of course, if the ZX-12 had properly-designed cam towers, Karl could use something like this and experience excruciating symmetry during his engine builds:
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 06, 2008 10:42 PM
hey Tim, what's the McM-C part number of that billet Dial indicator holder? 
correcto that the TChin patented valve spring compressor doesn't require any cam/cam tower mods.
However, getting the DI probe onto the bucket is MUCH facilitated by those mods.
I sure don't know what tim is doing with the cool set up above. ?????
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted May 07, 2008 12:07 AM
quote:
I sure don't know what tim is doing with the cool set up above. ?????
True dat. It hardly looks home-made enough to be one of my tools. All I have to say is that it's a good thing there's a 2:1 ratio between crank and cam rotation, otherwise this tool would be of questionable utility.
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entropy
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Posts: 8671
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posted May 07, 2008 02:53 AM
Mapping valve profile???
i can see that the cool billet DI holder could make getting CL's perfect, but i'm lovin' my current CL measurement set up 
Jim turned around my head in 1/2 a day  !!! Higher CR & more PTV; dialing it in, dialing it in.
Tonight i'll get back at it, relap valves, resetup spring pressure, redo CR determination, reset lash, PTV & CL's.
No rest for the wicked.
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NOX
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PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
Posts: 3745
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posted May 07, 2008 05:25 AM
Karl is trying to make the first Diesel ZX12.
He is hoping Chevron will jump into the diesel bike market...............
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 07, 2008 07:05 AM
diesel ZX12???
hmmmmmmmm....
think what i'd save on spark plugs...
actually, my CR will prob be a bit lower than with my other head. I keeping some meat in reserve for when i blow it up.
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osti33
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posted May 07, 2008 12:01 PM
quote:
actually, my CR will prob be a bit lower than with my other head. I keeping some meat in reserve for when i blow it up.
You mean IF. "If" I blow it up. Not when...C'mon!
Let's keep those thoughts positive.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted May 07, 2008 02:29 PM
quote:
i prefer regular bud, or keiths... but our brew is stronger up here
Karl, when you have some free time can you do a little write up "for dummies" on how to set cam timing and check clearances? i dont want to be second guessing myself on this stuff when im rushing to put a motor together so i can tune it (learn how to use a data logger) and get to the track
thx!
There is a video that show very detailed examples. I had one If I find it I'll let you borrow it.
Still the first couple time should be left to someone that KNOWS what they are doing.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted May 07, 2008 04:24 PM
I would love to have an instructional video! whats the name of it? maybe i could download it somewhere?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted May 07, 2008 06:07 PM
Schnitz racing - HoleShot DVD, I have not seen it..........but there you go.
http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=4933450
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 07, 2008 09:08 PM
I agree with ninja12, read all that stuff, but best to watch someone do it at least once.
Its not rocket science to set cam CL's, but it is easy to fuk up, i know that from experience
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woppî
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Posts:
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posted May 08, 2008 12:57 AM
@entropy
my buddy asked me !
please tell me ??
why ---- bronze guides & seats ???
are they not to soft ???
thanks
woppi
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 08, 2008 02:16 AM
I'm using bronze seats cause Jim & TChin & Andy told me to.
I do what i'm told
mostly.
Really, i am not an expert on this stuff.
I needed oversized seats so jim puttem in and the consensus was to go with "bronze"
i think all guides are "bronze".
I broke 2 of em and jim replaced em all
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woppî
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Posts:
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posted May 08, 2008 06:06 AM
!!!!!
quote:
Karl is trying to make the first Diesel ZX12.
He is hoping Chevron will jump into the diesel bike market...............
yes, i think so to !!
but there is a guy in germany who builds an diesel bike !!!
he used an old vw diesel engine ( from a car ) and put that engine in a bike frame !!
crazy german !!!
woppi
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted May 11, 2008 04:39 PM
quote:
what are you doing with this Karl? is it for sale?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 11, 2008 05:25 PM
KZ,
trust me, you don't want that style. It works but a PITA to set up.
The mag base with jointed arm is 100X better and the McM-C economy model only costs about $30. They have a "standard" model which is the tits but costs $80. I bought one of each and my only regret is that it took me 4 years to find out about the jointed arm mag bases.
If you have yr heart set on the one that GB #3 is struggling to get into the trash you can have it.
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted May 11, 2008 05:41 PM
quote:
I'm using bronze seats cause Jim & TChin & Andy told me to.
Much better heat transfer than ferrous seats, so the valves run cooler and the seats don't distort. They are softer, which has its benefits when running Ti valves, which can't be too far off for Karl at this point. Let's see, Del West's number is...
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted May 11, 2008 05:52 PM
quote:
KZ,
trust me, you don't want that style. It works but a PITA to set up.
The mag base with jointed arm is 100X better and the McM-C economy model only costs about $30. They have a "standard" model which is the tits but costs $80. I bought one of each and my only regret is that it took me 4 years to find out about the jointed arm mag bases.
If you have yr heart set on the one that GB #3 is struggling to get into the trash you can have it.
hmmmm the $30 jointed arm version sounds like the right option for me. then i just need the dial indicator and im ready to set cam timing  i can make a positive stop out of an old spark plug, and i have a degree wheel.
i assume McM-C has a dial indicator thats reasonably priced too?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
|
posted May 11, 2008 05:55 PM
quote:
quote:
I'm using bronze seats cause Jim & TChin & Andy told me to.
Much better heat transfer than ferrous seats, so the valves run cooler and the seats don't distort. They are softer, which has its benefits when running Ti valves, which can't be too far off for Karl at this point. Let's see, Del West's number is...
then he could run lower valve spring pressure and pick up a couple hp
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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tcchin
Zone Head
Posts: 867
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posted May 11, 2008 07:21 PM
You don't need a positive stop if you use a dial indicator on your piston crown.
McMaster does have some economy dial indicators that are reasonably priced. You will need some additional McMaster parts from which you can fabricate some dial indicator contact points that will be able to reach under the cam tower and over to the tappet surface.
Karl is now the master of the piston-to-valve tooling. You may need to get that information from him if you want to play it safe.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 12, 2008 02:42 AM
quote:
...
Karl is now the master of the piston-to-valve tooling. You may need to get that information from him if you want to play it safe.
I sit at the feet of my Guru, drinking in fabulous knowledge, and following the path that ALL things are possible...
( with just a few McM-C part numbers...)
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