woppi
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posted January 24, 2008 05:34 AM
JE or Wiseco -- what do you prefer ?
JE or Wiseco Pistons ---------- what do you prefer ?
please give me your input
thanks
woppi
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" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
  
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
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posted January 24, 2008 06:53 AM
I think one owns the other.................................maybe thats MTC, I can't remember.
Guess it depends on what you want to do and how much you want to spend.
Don't know about a 12 but off the shelf stuff for a Busa will have different sizes
and compression ratios as well as flat top and dome type. For off the shelf I
like JE. For custom stuff it's hard to say. I have only ever used 1 set of weisco
and one set of JE off the shelf product, and have owned 1 set of custom JE slugs.
Talk to both Vincent Hill and Entropy for custom stuff and you'll get some real
interesting stories.
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woppî
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posted January 24, 2008 07:06 AM
sorry, i forgot !!
zx12r stock bore -83mm - year 00
Wet NOS system - shot 100 - 150 ??
woppi
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ricksgsxr
Zone Head
Posts: 511
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posted January 24, 2008 07:41 AM
I prefer CP Pistons over either. JE has a good reputation though
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zrxdean
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posted January 24, 2008 08:07 AM
Post pics and specs for this piston, but for spray I'd suggest the thicker dome, most material above the top ring land.
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KZScott
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posted January 24, 2008 08:24 AM
you are still waiting on the 1272 kit in the mail?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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woppi
Pro
Posts: 1362
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posted January 24, 2008 11:54 AM
KZ
pm sent
woppi
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1st TFA Member / Austria !
" if it has wheels or titts - sometimes you will get troubles "
2000 Limited ZX12R NOS
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KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 24, 2008 01:49 PM
returned.
I think VH is using CP flat top pistons to run a huge shot 150ish stock bore
JC i think has put 150 on a muzzy 1270 kit, those are JE pistons. i think you need stainless valves for a big shot like that
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 24, 2008 03:09 PM
JE or Wiseco or CP??????
prob all good.
BUT!!!
John Noonan at JE is a LSR maniac and will take personal care of you.
he UNDERSTANDS and has a passion for MC racing.
He turned around a set of fully engineered, undercut custom pistons for me in 8 days to my door.
Go anywhere else but JE???
Not me.
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sleeperbusa
Novice Class
Posts: 73
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posted January 24, 2008 04:32 PM
Yeah,
What Karl said.
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2008 Hayabusa.
64", stock clutch, stock gears, foot shifting,1441cc, 8.98 at 157mph at 260 pounds. Holdin it down for the big fellas..
2013 ZX14R.....to be continued.
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madmike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted January 25, 2008 05:11 PM
I have had very good luck with the JE... now I want to here more about the 150 shot???? on the 1270 pistons...
MM
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KZScott
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posted January 25, 2008 05:30 PM
yeah, MM i went thru the whole dragbike zone and read everything that looked interesting(when recovering from my last shoulder operation and couldnt sleep) and i saw a few times where JC had mentioned 120-150 on the Muzzy(JE) 1270 pistons, he used a wet shot i think(muzzy stealth?), and upgraded the EX valves to stainless and maybe a few other tricks? im not sure. it would probly take good gas and lots of timing retard....
Gary, you have had a 120 shot on your 1375 right?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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TRNorBRN6001
Needs a job
Posts: 2021
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posted January 26, 2008 08:36 AM
No, I'm too scared. A small 70 shot, that runs around 65-68HP. Maybe 100 shot later,
but I doubt it. The Old 12 will probably be retired to street duty. Will probably sell the
Muzzy Stealth kit then.
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VincentHill
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posted January 26, 2008 11:53 AM
Two things, Gary is correct that Wiseco owns JE and another company in WIsconsin owns both of them!
Second, CP NOW hase a Factory in Mooresville North Carolina and when I had a problem with a piston, I Called and left a message for CP at 7:30 AM Here on the east coast time and at 10:30 AM I got a call and e-mail back from them and a new set of Pistons the Following Week.
When I called Mahle and Cossworth about Pistons, the "Only" Piston they compared theirs to was CP. When Pierre blew up his 12 at the World Finals in Gainesville in 2003 We saw where the right side of the valve pockets were just touched showing that the relief was off, even it it was only off by about 0.004. (Machined wrong not a tolorance issue JE Just made a Mistake)
I got a set from JE and found that the Depth of the pockets were off Plus or minus about that same amount. and I did not measure all of the clearances for each and every Piston (My Fault) and the .008 that was the difference where I measured Plus the Shimmed clearance difference of about 0.004 and the Compression of the Aluminum Base Spacer Plus the difference in Clearance between Acel and Decel, cost me some bent valves. NOTHING is Perfect and even CP is off but the Total difference I could measure was about 0.002.
I thought I was doing everything perfectly and had taken everything into consideration except being Human. So no matter what you use or are doing allow more Fudge Room. I was trying to get away with 0.030 Clearance and did not take into account the differences in the Forward and Backward valve to Piston clearances and Accel and Decel. The exact same set up cleared everything with the CP THEN I figured out what I was doing wrong!
I posted Pictures of the CP and JE Piston side by side. The CP has a longer skirt, 2 More Oil Holes, Thicker in the dome by the Piston Pin and the CP is a tiny bit less weight. I ran them for 3 years until my SOme timers disease struck and I turned up the NOS pressure abd forgot to adjust the Fuel Pressure and ran EGT of 1800 degrees and about 18 to 1 A/F.
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kcadby
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posted January 27, 2008 12:34 AM
 Edited By: kcadby on 27 Jan 2008 00:37
I have had very good luck with all of the above...
CP is for sure very good but...
I too like Karl think/know that John at JE will MAKE what you want/NEED for WHATEVER you are doing if they don't have what's best for what your application requires on the shelf...
JE at my request (through John) has made me several sets of custom Pistons for several Apps. from Cindy's 1-off CB 750 (no kit available from ANYONE), a CB1000, up to and including my best friends 1260 ZX12 NO2 (thicker above wrist pin) and the NO2 ProMod Busa pistons that I am in the process of building (and posting about here)...
For 150HP of NO2 reliably??? (THICK PISTONS) with a spacer plate should to use to handle the heat IMO...
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VincentHill
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posted January 27, 2008 05:08 AM
For 150HP of NO2 reliably??? (THICK PISTONS) with a spacer plate should to use to handle the heat IMO...
IMHO From what you have done and what has worked for me, that can be taken to the Bank and used for CASH!
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johnnycheese
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posted January 27, 2008 09:49 AM
150+ I used the pistons (1270) from Muzzy, no base gasket,no spacer plate stock valves and Heavy springs
Set up Set up Set up
is the key
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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VincentHill
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posted January 27, 2008 12:17 PM
quote:
150+ I used the pistons (1270) from Muzzy, no base gasket,no spacer plate stock valves and Heavy springs
Set up Set up Set up
is the key
MR> CHeese, I would not put past you a 100 SHot on a Stock Piston and no problems for "YOU!
If JC (The one above) came down here to ride a Motorcycle, I am SURE he would stop my his Initials Name sake JC in Texas
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kcadby
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posted January 27, 2008 01:09 PM
When I say reliably...that means "bullet/IDIOT proof" reliable...
They can be run all year long (100+ runs) probably for 2-years (sometimes MORE) with nothing more than Clutch Plates, Spark Plugs and Oil Changes (in most cases)...
For the number of motors I have built/tunned??? I can honestly say that I have had only a handle full (five-6???) in THIRTY YEARS that eventually hurt themselves due to anything I did/tried...
I think it would be fair to say that at least half of those were part of my 30+-year "learning curve"... 
Don't get me wrong...I have ALLWAYS built motors more for reliability than for that extra coulple-few HP., because I have "never" been able to afford hurting parts...
The good news there is...my motors always seem to perform "very well" for what they are...
I.E. Johns ZX1260 that made 204HP with stock cams...and a year later after being raced every weekend (at 260-270HP with "off-shelf" MTC Pistons) he finally hurt a spark plug..
All I did was was lap the valves in and it made the same 203hp again for another year...
Last year I tuned a Coby Adams Built ZX14 that made 290Hp w/spray on stock pistons but it eventually did hurt itself and Coby told the owner he was surprised that it lasted as long as it did (he didn't want to build it with stock pistons but the owner wanted it done YESTERDAY and had/has the money to risk it...
ANYWAY...Anything I ever suggest is for complete and TOTAL reliability (read above YEARs of fun)...
But...I wouldn't hesitate to do/try anything that JC says, because I have heard nothing but good about what he does ...
I am kind-of expecting my hurt parts % record to change with this ProMod Bike but am starting our Engine Program with reliability in the forground (as usual) and will start "squeezing" as necessary later...
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kcadby
Pro
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posted January 27, 2008 01:28 PM
Just for giggles...
I ran my personal KZ1000 Bracket Bike with the same Weisco 1105cc pistons for so many years (at least 8???)...
I wore out and replaced SEVERAL Cyl Blocks, 2-crankshafts (wrist pin end of rods got loose)...
Ran it so long that Weisco didn't make rings for the piston anymore...LOL...
That little 1105 ran as fast as 142MPH in the 1/4...so it wasn't a slug either
Those piston won me 2-back-to-back track Champs (2nd place the next year) at MOROSO and never finished out of the top-4 any year that I raced every race there...
Almost forgot...they were USED when I took them out of John's StreetBike to use in my RaceBike...LOL...
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wolf racing
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted January 27, 2008 02:29 PM
Edited By: wolf racing on 27 Jan 2008 14:32
Hi,
Woppi,
As far as our team's concerned wiseco is for rebuilds and JE are for performance.
CP and MTC are good as well.
We've run 150 shot on our 1427cc ZX12R for 3 years. On JE pistons that have been in it for 5 years. That's also using standard valves with mega ti springs. Replaced vlaves and springs only once - prior to NOS.
The only mod we did prior to NOS was to trim the thin valve pocket edge down slightly to ensure there's no cracking.
Keep checking valve clearances and plenty of fresh oil.
Maybe we've just been lucky....
John Noonan is a real good bloke and will help out.
Wolf....
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KZScott
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posted January 27, 2008 04:09 PM
quote:
150+ I used the pistons (1270) from Muzzy, no base gasket,no spacer plate stock valves and Heavy springs
Set up Set up Set up
is the key
what quench height did that motor have? what was the AF ratio you tuned it to? how much ignition retard? what octane fuel? wet or dry kit?
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
KZScott
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Posts: 7235
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posted January 27, 2008 04:11 PM
Edited By: KZScott on 27 Jan 2008 16:13
quote:
The only mod we did prior to NOS was to trim the thin valve pocket edge down slightly to ensure there's no cracking.
Wolf, do you have any pics of this? and can you elaborate on it a bit plz?
thx!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
|
Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted January 28, 2008 05:47 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 28 Jan 2008 05:51
As far as overall engineering, design, and manufacturing... I'd have to say that Mahle and CP are above the average, for "off the shelf" pistons based on the several hundred pistons I've seen come from well over a dozen manufacturers. There are several other custom piston makers that make excellent custom pistons but don't make bike pistons so I won't bother to mention them here......
As far as bike pistons, Mahle and CP are above the rest in ring land design, ring package, and overall engineering, quality, and CONSISTANCY!!!!! But the price is also quite a bit more.
JE makes good pistons as well but lately they have had some consistency issues and they don't offer the latest design trends the high end makers are incorporating in their latest designs. But bang for the buck JE and Wiesco are hard to beat.
You won't see a Cup or F1 team using JE or Wiesco, they have all migrated to Mahle as of the last several years. Mahle seems to be leading piston design once again.
Just a note to those of you using Muzzy spec 1270 pistons with 60mm stroke and Millennium bored zx12r blocks. Check your skirts if you put street miles on the engine. Mine wore out the skirts after about 4000 miles due to an improper skirt design for the stroke. The stroker actually should have a different skirt design. Part of the problem is also that Millennium over chamfers the bottom of the cylinder bore reducing "raising" the skirt contact area on the piston. When you have custom stroker pistons made the manufacturer will, or should, ask for the location of the bottom of the cylinder contact on the skirt. They need to know this.
Apparently Muzzy/JE didn't change the skirt spec for the 1375 kit. Shame on both of them.
And I'm to blame for not checking it. Thou I did buy a "kit", but that's still no excuse. So shame on me.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted January 28, 2008 06:38 AM
hey Jim!
I don't know squat about pistons, but when i toured JE's facilities a couple years ago, I saw a ton (maybe 30 sets) in the QA room, getting ready to go out to NASCAR Teams
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