entropy
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posted July 14, 2007 06:20 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 14 Jul 2007 07:49
pix: piston coating, measurement stand
I had my JE custom deep pocket pistons treated and coated WPC+Tin at MICRO-RITE Performance Inc. This is an experiment to see if it helps the stroker scuffing issue.
They said that the WPC/Sn would increase the diameter less than 1/2 a tenth, but Dr Chin has convinced me to measure everything (twice), so i remeasured piston diameter after treatment.
Good news is that the piston diameter increase is so small i really can't measure it reliably.
Note: measuring piston diameter with reproducible results (+/- .0001) is a VERY ticklish process. Without the mic stand it was impossible for me. Even with it, gotta be REAL careful.
HEY GARAGE BARBIES! One of you put down that gasket and come hold this piston.
Since i was in photobucket, i thought i'd post this Thai bar scene for the poor OCD motor builders who don't leave their garage too often.
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tcchin
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posted July 14, 2007 07:15 AM
Sluts are cool. Nothing smells quite as romantic without Christmas lights, fans and a concrete platform.
BTW, I like your use of organic shims in conjunction with the mic stand. That's a great way to restrict your degrees of freedom!
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entropy
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posted July 14, 2007 07:51 AM
Tim,
I don't have a surface plate, but "organic shims" are plentiful. 
BTW: I use the word "slut/slutty" as a high order compliment; kinda like "fox/foxy", but with better defined possibilities.
I suspect we are aligned in this regard.
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tcchin
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posted July 14, 2007 08:00 AM
Indeed we are. And with a run of cat5e in the garage and these photos, now I never have to leave!
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jw
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posted July 14, 2007 05:19 PM
If the measurements are nearly the same. Was any of the coating still on the piston?
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rgeorge
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posted July 14, 2007 06:45 PM
That's a nice mic.
I wish I had have tools in my garage that can measure to .00005 .
Hell, I don't even own any garage barbies.
When you are taking the measurements of the coated pistons, make sure your room temp is the same as the when you took the original measurements.
But Im sure you've already thought of that. 
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted July 14, 2007 09:11 PM
LMAO! i love the garage barbies. that's classic.
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MadMike
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posted July 14, 2007 09:23 PM
quote:
That's a nice mic.
I wish I had have tools in my garage that can measure to .00005 .
Hell, I don't even own any garage barbies.
When you are taking the measurements of the coated pistons, make sure your room temp is the same as the when you took the original measurements.
But Im sure you've already thought of that.
There is a picture of a Mic up there??????
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tcchin
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posted July 14, 2007 10:32 PM
There were some follow-on discussions regarding the - uh - people in the image above. Apparently some who are better-traveled than I am suspect that there might be a most unwelcome surprise awaiting anyone choosing to "date" one of the concrete platform betties. Apparently, that kind of surprise is more common in Brazil and the Philippine Islands than in Thailand, but as far as I'm concerned, once is way more than too much! ...Unless, of course, you're into that kinda thing.
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aliveagain
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posted July 15, 2007 05:42 PM
What you talking about Willis? They got their own carillo?
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entropy
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posted July 16, 2007 03:54 AM
quote:
If the measurements are nearly the same. Was any of the coating still on the piston?
jw, the tin coating is very thin & hard, but uniformly applied, it does not rub off.
Rob,
i do pay attention to temp of measurement differences, but if its less than about 5-10F (no science here), i don't worry about it.
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woppi
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posted July 16, 2007 04:24 AM
entropy
do you build a big big big stroker engine ??????????
with 300hp ?????????
woppi
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entropy
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posted July 16, 2007 04:53 AM
300hp???
hahahahahahahaha!! That is Prostock level. Mine is only 210-225.
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osti33
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posted July 16, 2007 10:07 AM
Looking good Karl. You are correct. It would be next to impossible to get repeatable measurements without that mic stand. Good work on the science fair project. 
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woppi
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posted July 16, 2007 10:46 PM
sorry entropy
would not break your secret !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( big big strocker engine -- 300hp )
woppi
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BrooklynNYZX12
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posted July 17, 2007 07:22 PM
I'm unclear on an assembling issue.When building an engine,aren't there variations in the sizes of the pistons that would ultimately affect the piston-cylinder tolerance specs?What i'm asking is,when Millenium does the cylinders,do you send them the pistons so they can hone each cylinder to match a coresponding piston?I know the piston manufacturers are pretty precise,as is Millenium,but there has to be some variation there.I don't have much bike engine assembly experience but I have some car experience,I have used coated pistons for nitrous applications (Swain coatings) and I recall the engine had to be honed because the thickness of the coating changed the piston to wall clearance.
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tcchin
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posted July 17, 2007 09:09 PM
Wow, what a loaded question, eh Karl?
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entropy
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posted July 18, 2007 06:54 AM
Edited By: entropy on 18 Jul 2007 08:38
quote:
I'm unclear on an assembling issue.When building an engine,aren't there variations in the sizes of the pistons that would ultimately affect the piston-cylinder tolerance specs?What i'm asking is,when Millenium does the cylinders,do you send them the pistons so they can hone each cylinder to match a coresponding piston?I know the piston manufacturers are pretty precise,as is Millenium,but there has to be some variation there.I don't have much bike engine assembly experience but I have some car experience,I have used coated pistons for nitrous applications (Swain coatings) and I recall the engine had to be honed because the thickness of the coating changed the piston to wall clearance.
Brooklyn,
As Tim says, you are asking a loaded question, and I am not qualified to answer it 
BUT, not being qualified has never stopped me from yappin' before...
My recent experience:
A couple months ago I had a set of JE pistons made up for my brand new "87mm" Muzzy billet big block. The block was fresh being mfg'd at Muzzy and plated/honed at Millennium.
I wanted deeper pockets, shorter skirts (who doesn't like short skirts), and high compression. John Noonan at JE had the pistons engineered for my "87mm" block.
As the pistons were being made, Tim Chin & I were exchanging emails and he was nicely but very persistently telling me to be sure to ACCURATELY measure pistons and block to assure the proper clearance was present.
So I got some tools, learned to measure pistons, and lo and behold, the pistons were WAY tight in the block, only 6-8tenths clearance.
So, I sent the block & pistons to Millennium told them my desired clearance. They honed the bores, sent em back to me. Everything fine now... right?
[borat voice] NOT!
The clearance now was up to 12-14 tenths, still way too tight. WTF???
After harassing Tim Chin, Y2K, Noonan, Osti, MM, Millennium et al for an explanation, it turned out that I was measuring the piston .275 up from the base of the skirt (as per JE build sheet), and Millennium was measuring .500 up (as per their SOP). Going further up a skirt is generally a good thing, but not in this case as the pistons taper in.
So, I sent the block and pistons back to Millennium, they re-re-re-Honed it.
Gottem back and measured again, things measured up OK.
Then I decided to have the pistons treated/coated, and was assured that the treatment/coating would not significantly impact clearance. Gottem back from coating and all is fine as per the pix.
Moral to the story is if you play around with custom pistons, MEASURE EVERYTHING TWICE!
Sorry for the windy post.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted July 18, 2007 08:28 AM
Man Karl you have a whole lot of patients.
I know you probably had to ask the question from each individual so I am
just curious as well. What did they say when you asked them why they
measured from different locations on the piston? I would think that Millenium
would have gone with the piston manufacturers specs.
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entropy
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posted July 18, 2007 08:43 AM
Edited By: entropy on 18 Jul 2007 09:44
like a dumb shit, i didn't send Millennium the build sheet with the spec.
My case is tricky because my desired clearance is at the very end of the tight side of the spec. I am wanting "in spec but tight" to see if i can cut down on scuffing.
If i asked for the center point of the spec, this whole issue may not have come up.
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BrooklynNYZX12
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posted July 18, 2007 01:27 PM
Karl,thanks for answering the question,it is by no means a loaded question,I have had some experience assembling car stuff and almost always had the cylinders honed after pistons were purchased and measured because of variations in the sizes of the pistons relative to the piston to wall clearance issue.I consider a small block chevy relatively crude compared to a ZX12 engine and I was curious as to why this type of procedure was never mentioned.Karl you answered what I needed to know.Dealing with a company that specializes like Millenium rather than a car type of machine shop that uses aboring bar/Sunnen hone type of set up makes it a little harder logistically to ship the pistons to Millenium numbered so that they could hone them accordingly.Thanks Karl again for patiently answering.Frank B
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tcchin
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posted July 18, 2007 02:11 PM
Frank,
No disrespect intended. My characterization of your question as being loaded was just a reference to Karl's recent gyrations between Muzzy, JE and Millennium on this exact topic. Your question, in and of itself, was very reasonable. Unfortunately, the answer and the execution of the answer occasionally find themselves on divergent trajectories.
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harryzx-12
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posted July 19, 2007 08:09 PM
Nice pics karl. What brand of micrometer are you using?
Might want to consider getting mr. jimmy johnson coated before your next asia trip!
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tcchin
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posted July 19, 2007 08:22 PM
I'm not sure Moby would exhibit the same dimensional indifference to high-velocity tin bombardment.
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