fish_antlers
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posted May 31, 2007 07:21 AM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 31 May 2007 08:22
Maryland: 2 Killed, 15 Injured in Chain of Beltway Crashes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053002615.html
quote:
By Clarence Williams and Elissa Silverman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, May 31, 2007; Page B01
A police attempt to stop a speeding motorcycle touched off a gruesome series of collisions on both sides of the Capital Beltway in Prince George's County last night, killing two people and injuring 15 others, including two officers.
The seven-vehicle pileup, one of the Beltway's most violent in recent memory, closed down all lanes of the inner loop in the Forestville area for nearly five hours and snarled traffic on both sides of the highway late into the night.
The collisions occurred on both sides of the Capital Beltway near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit. Two of the 15 people injured were police officers.
"I've been in law enforcement a long time and have been on a number of tough scenes. And this is a tough scene," said Prince George's Police Chief Melvin C. High. "Your thoughts go to [the injured and dead], and their families and friends."
The accident was set in motion about 7 p.m. when a Prince George's police cruiser chasing the motorcycle on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit slammed into a vehicle after the motorcycle cut in front of the car, police said.
The force of the impact caused the car to go airborne over the median's guardrail and into oncoming traffic on the inner loop. That caused a chain-reaction crash involving five southbound cars.
The motorcycle sped off, and its driver remained at large, police said.
Details about the two dead were unavailable last night. The 15 injured were taken to hospitals; one of them was said to be in critical condition.
The collisions left vehicles strewn across the inner loop. One vehicle was overturned and bent like an accordion. Police said it was a sport-utility vehicle, but it was no longer identifiable. Rescuers ripped the tops off of at least two cars to free their occupants, said Cpl. Stephen Pacheco.
The officers involved in the crash were traveling in two vehicles, officials said. One was pursuing the motorcycle; the other was off-duty and heading home on the inner loop.
High said both officers were seriously injured, but the off-duty officer was hurt more severely. He was being treated last night at Prince George's Hospital Center. Neither officer's injuries were believed to be life-threatening, Pacheco said.
Traffic on the Beltway was at a standstill for hours. The inner loop was closed near Exit 13, the ramp for Ritchie Marlboro Road.
High said police captured the pursuit and ensuing crash with a video camera in a cruiser. Authorities will use the footage to try to identify the motorcycle and its driver, he said. Police also interviewed several witnesses.
Pacheco said some lanes of the Beltway near the crash scene will be closed after the morning rush today as the investigation continues. The closures were expected to start about 10 a.m.
The officer who pursed the motorcycle has been put on administrative leave, authorities said. Neither officer was immediately identified.
The accident "illustrates the problem we have with speed and what can happen in an instant," High said.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
   
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stevewfl
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posted June 02, 2007 03:19 PM
hmmm...same state as the lawmaker who suggested "BAN crotch rockets"
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NinjaNick
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posted June 02, 2007 04:37 PM
It's not the cop fault though huh? lol 
Damn, I'd hate to have a sportbike in MD. 
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lietoome
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posted June 02, 2007 05:15 PM
quote:
It started at about 7 p.m. when a Prince George's County police officer spotted a speeding motorcycle and positioned himself to stop it on the inner loop, police said. The motorcycle rider swerved in front of a civilian car and sped away, causing the officer's car to hit the civilian's.
Real curious what this departments' standards are for stopping bikes....
Again, sounds like another bad decision on the cops behalf....and the rider. Wonder how fast he was going????
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H2 to ZX12
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posted June 02, 2007 05:37 PM
quote:
Real curious what this departments' standards are for stopping bikes....
Again, sounds like another bad decision on the cops behalf....
policy is listed above in another article......not to give chase unless driver is believed to have committed a felony, or a violent and/or armed that presents an imediate risk to the public..........not to chase a driver for a trafic violation.
read, the cop shouldn't have chased the motorcycle
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worm~hole
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posted June 02, 2007 05:43 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 2 Jun 2007 18:56
quote:
It's not the cop fault though huh? lol
Damn, I'd hate to have a sportbike in MD.
...if you're looking for blame, where can it be found in this scenerio?....iwill it be 100% cop?....or 100% biker?....how about 50-50?...and how do you sustain your findings?...are you a certified traffic collision traffic investigator?...do you even know what the scope of their investigation is?...oh yeah....I forgot....this is the internet....we can say whatever we want even if we don't have all of the facts...we shouldn't take what we have to say so seriously...c'mon all together now let's roll our eyes in disgust like this ...
...even though I know that we all exceed the posted speed limits, here's the chicken and egg question: did the biker continue to speed because of the pursuing cop or did the cop pursue because the biker continued to speed?...hmmmm....I know all bullshiting aside we have some intelligent people here in spite of our annonymous internet bravado and it'd be intersting to read your responses...
...allow me this point for a moment...when we take the written portion of our driving license test, there are a few questions which address what a motorist is expected to do when there is a marked emergency vehicle "running code" (aka lights and sirens in police jargon) in your vicinity ie. you yield the right of way to the emergency vehicle...there is also an expectation of stopping if you know or believe that YOU are the one being signaled to stop...
...if the speeding biker knew he was being signaled to stop, HE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED...PERIOD...if the cop knew the traffic was heavy, he should have not pursued once the biker made appreciable distance and obstacles between him and his cruiser...PERIOD...
...do any of you actually KNOW what the biker was thinking during the event?...if it is proved that the officer was running code behind the bike, do you know if the biker knew that he was being signaled to stop?...do any of you have unimpeachable proof that the cop was or was not running code?...
...if you cannot answer "YES" to three questions, then how do you come to your conclusion that it is the cop's fault?....and these are just three of the many questions that will be asked in a full and competent investigation...then, at the conclusion of the investigation and only then will we have sufficient evidence to form an intelligent opinion or belief of where the burden of responsibility lies...anything less is just venting and bullshit, but I think you already know that  ...
...
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H2 to ZX12
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posted June 02, 2007 05:56 PM
"if you cannot answer "YES" to three questions, then how do you come to your conclusion that it is the cop's fault?....and these are just three of the many questions that will be asked in a full and competent investigation...then, at the conclusion of the investigation and only then will we have sufficient evidence to form an intelligent opinion or belief of where the burden of responsibility lies...anything less is just venting and bullshit, but I think you already know that "
Worm-dog, the department admitted that the officer was chasing the bike, the policy is not to chase unless the driver (read above) which there is no evidence the driver was or the deptment would've stated it (the only variable here) and the officer hit the car that caused the accidents on both loops. ultimately the officer is responsible for the accident and the dealths because his car physically made the contact that caused the chain reaction (subsequent colisions) meaning that the leo failed to control his vehicle regardless of whether he was justified in his pursuit of the bike, which I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he wasn't.
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worm~hole
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posted June 02, 2007 06:15 PM
quote:
"if you cannot answer "YES" to three questions, then how do you come to your conclusion that it is the cop's fault?....and these are just three of the many questions that will be asked in a full and competent investigation...then, at the conclusion of the investigation and only then will we have sufficient evidence to form an intelligent opinion or belief of where the burden of responsibility lies...anything less is just venting and bullshit, but I think you already know that "
Worm-dog, the department admitted that the officer was chasing the bike, the policy is not to chase unless the driver (read above) which there is no evidence the driver was or the deptment would've stated it (the only variable here) and the officer hit the car that caused the accidents on both loops. ultimately the officer is responsible for the accident and the dealths because his car physically made the contact that caused the chain reaction (subsequent colisions) meaning that the leo failed to control his vehicle regardless of whether he was justified in his pursuit of the bike, which I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he wasn't.
...and this is where most civilians don't understand traffic collision investigations and how each individual, each vehicle, each roadway feature, each naturally occurring event is subject to an assigned percentage of "cause" or "contributing factor" in a collision...its really easy to want to to put total blame of the collision on that officer in spite of other evidence or findings...its not so easy to wait for the professional and expert investigation to conclude...
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thekaz
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posted June 03, 2007 08:45 AM
I am getting REAL tired of cops who are stupid......
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worm~hole
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posted June 03, 2007 09:26 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 3 Jun 2007 10:29
...what/who do you mean?...here or there?...
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H2 to ZX12
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posted June 03, 2007 10:16 AM
Edited By: H2 to ZX12 on 3 Jun 2007 12:04
quote:
...and this is where most civilians don't understand traffic collision investigations and how each individual, each vehicle, each roadway feature, each naturally occurring event is subject to an assigned percentage of "cause" or "contributing factor" in a collision...its really easy to want to to put total blame of the collision on that officer in spite of other evidence or findings...its not so easy to wait for the professional and expert investigation to conclude...
yea I get it that I don't understand the criterea of crash investigations, how could I? But I think that logic will prevail here and I'm willing to bet that the department get sucessfully sued no matter what the "official crash investigation report" states. Are you willing to bet they won't? So ultimately the judge will decide not a crash report dummy. 
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worm~hole
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posted June 03, 2007 11:31 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 3 Jun 2007 12:34
...the judge will use the data of the report to help him/her decide for or against the department, the cop, the biker, etc. ..
....and you bring up an important point when you wrote: " yea I get it that I don't understand the criterea of crash investigations, how could I?"...bingo! ...yet most folk are quick to jump the gun and blame the cop for everything...see what I mean?
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NinjaNick
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posted June 03, 2007 11:49 AM
Edited By: NinjaNick on 3 Jun 2007 12:50
quote:
I am getting REAL tired of cops who are stupid......
I'm getting tired of them getting competitive with the public. Like when that bike ran...I gaurantee the cop said to himself, "Oh you summabitch, you want some, you got some!" and then floored it.
The cops get the toughguy mentality and cause failure not just to themselves but to the public they serve. That's why calm individuals with no anger issues should be cops. Lots of them, NOT ALL, are people who wanted to be a cop because they were tired of being stepped on while out in public.
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worm~hole
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posted June 03, 2007 12:11 PM
quote:
quote:
I am getting REAL tired of cops who are stupid......
I'm getting tired of them getting competitive with the public. Like when that bike ran...I gaurantee the cop said to himself, "Oh you summabitch, you want some, you got some!" and then floored it.
The cops get the toughguy mentality and cause failure not just to themselves but to the public they serve. That's why calm individuals with no anger issues should be cops. Lots of them, NOT ALL, are people who wanted to be a cop because they were tired of being stepped on while out in public.
....we're smart enough to know that what you wrote are just your stated opinions cuz' there's nothing to support it if you were stating these as fact...
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thekaz
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posted June 03, 2007 12:19 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I am getting REAL tired of cops who are stupid......
I'm getting tired of them getting competitive with the public. Like when that bike ran...I gaurantee the cop said to himself, "Oh you summabitch, you want some, you got some!" and then floored it.
The cops get the toughguy mentality and cause failure not just to themselves but to the public they serve. That's why calm individuals with no anger issues should be cops. Lots of them, NOT ALL, are people who wanted to be a cop because they were tired of being stepped on while out in public.
....we're smart enough to know that what you wrote are just your stated opinions cuz' there's nothing to support it if you were stating these as fact...
i definately didnt mean ALL cops just the ones that seem to be in need of better training is stuations like this
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NinjaNick
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posted June 03, 2007 12:22 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I am getting REAL tired of cops who are stupid......
I'm getting tired of them getting competitive with the public. Like when that bike ran...I gaurantee the cop said to himself, "Oh you summabitch, you want some, you got some!" and then floored it.
The cops get the toughguy mentality and cause failure not just to themselves but to the public they serve. That's why calm individuals with no anger issues should be cops. Lots of them, NOT ALL, are people who wanted to be a cop because they were tired of being stepped on while out in public.
....we're smart enough to know that what you wrote are just your stated opinions cuz' there's nothing to support it if you were stating these as fact...
No shit! It's obvious you can't get those facts. Like anyone would admit it. It's not that hard to understand people if 1) you're not a liberal and 2) you're not oblivious of what people do and are capable of doing.
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worm~hole
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posted June 03, 2007 12:36 PM
...what...admit the truth?...hell most larger law enforcement agencies have a civilian review board of some form or fashion to keep things on an even keel, so there's no "hiding"...next thing you know the civilian review boards will be accused of being "on the take" if they side with the cops...when in fact they report the truth of the investigation whether its for or against the cops....
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stevewfl
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posted June 03, 2007 12:38 PM
"hell most larger law enforcement agencies have a civilian review board of some form or fashion to keep things on an even keel" <----there's some more corruption
I'd rather  and get it over with than trust them fackers
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worm~hole
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posted June 03, 2007 01:06 PM
quote:
"hell most larger law enforcement agencies have a civilian review board of some form or fashion to keep things on an even keel" <----there's some more corruption
I'd rather and get it over with than trust them fackers
...and the accusations continue...goes to prove that unless you're in charge, you can't please all of the fools all of the time, but you can fool the fools all of the time...
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H2 to ZX12
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posted June 03, 2007 03:06 PM
quote:
...the judge will use the data of the report to help him/her decide for or against the department, the cop, the biker, etc. ..
so you want to bet that the department won't get sucessfully sued? That's what I'm hearing
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tinhead
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posted June 03, 2007 04:09 PM
Worm hole, I can appreciate your view of things through your bacon goggles. It's been 4 days since this (civilian adjectives here tragic unfortunate senseless) incident and there still is no captured fleeing biker.
I know I'm not a trained investigator, but that fact alone draws me to the conclusion that the pigs were never very close to the bike. I'd bet the dashcam views have been pored over endlessly, more than a hundred hours later after careful Pig Digital Enhancement all we know is that it was a "black bike".
Not a plate number, not a model and brand of bike even. For all I know they might have all that from the dashcam stuff and are waiting for the TV crews to show up before the SWAT team bursts through the bikers door and arrests him, after which he will suffer a fall down a flight of stairs while being processed at the station. I doubt it though or it already would have happened.
I've ridden the Beltway, the exits aren't that close together, a difficult environment to evade in. The traffic sucks any time the sun is up too, it seems. If that biker is going to be caught it will take a tip from a civilian cager, there aren't a whole lot of bikes that use the Beltway, and if he was evading at high speed as described he was in close proximity to over a hundred cages with all their eyeballs inside and cellphones in hand.
Hindsight is perfect I know, but the Beltway is an ideal area for the Motorola stop, radio ahead to a fellow pig and track him that way. Should a suit be brought against the pigs, it may be successful because of that, but is ultimately meaningless to the victims' families, there's things a bag of cash can't replace.
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VincentHill
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posted June 03, 2007 05:00 PM
I have not taken the time to read all of the comments, but being here you know a little more than being elsewhere
#1, The way the Police get around the "fellony" is 30 MPH is a criminal act and that allows them to chase
#2, The First Policeman doing the chaseing was not at fault, it was the second Idiot Policeman who tried to cut him off and hit the Pick Up truck
#3, This was Prince Georges County Police! They have killed people delivering Furniture to the door of their Home because something was scratched. They have Killed (No way to count the number) So many people in Custody that they had to make a special law about it! They are mostly Cowboys and no one here is surprised. There are so many wrecked cars and People's Homes in SE DC From the them chaseing people into the District that new laws were made about that also! They put that Idiot on Desk Duty just like the rest of them that Kill people!
Last, the PGC Police are a bunch of Frustrated Gun Ho want a be's that have maimed and Killed more people than all of the other area police departments combined! YES THEY CAUSED THIS ACCIDENT AND KILLED THOSE PEOPLE AND WILL DO IT AGAIN!
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MadMike
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posted June 03, 2007 05:07 PM
...if the speeding biker knew he was being signaled to stop, HE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED...PERIOD...if the cop knew the traffic was heavy, he should have not pursued once the biker made appreciable distance and obstacles between him and his cruiser...PERIOD...
this says it all right here...
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H2 to ZX12
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posted June 03, 2007 05:15 PM
Vincent, I believe the pursuit policy read "forceful fellony". You're thinking of the districts law about 30 mph over which is called "Excessive Speed" which when I was charged with it was a 1st degree misdomenor and carried 1yr/$1000 fine.
So theoretically, unless the department can identify this "black bike" driver and prove he was "a violent and immediate danger to the public" any of the officers chasing the bike were in violation of thier own policy. I really don't see them getting out of this one at all.
+1 on PG county being the worst PD in the DC area, they probably rate in the top 10 worst in the country. Jacksonville FL is right up there. When I lived in J-ville in 1980 the dept. was full of crazy pissed off redneck vietnam vets that were taken mostly innocent people out in the woods and beating them to within an inch of thier life, then drag them into the station hours later and throw down a handgun and a bag of qualudes or coke and send them up for 5-10. Real sweethearts
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VincentHill
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posted June 03, 2007 05:19 PM
MM, Rush Hour on the Beltway in DC at that time of day even the shoulders are crowded. AVerage speed at that time of day is usually 20 to 30 MPH when moving and usually crawling! If the Biker had stopped HE May have been Beaten and worse yet is they throw the Bike on the sling on the tow truck and do THOUSANDS Of dollars of damage. A Woman was Killed after being stopped for doing 70 in a 55 on I-270 where everyone does 70. She left after being stopped and lost control! If they treated our equipment better maybe more would stop!
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