entropy
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posted May 13, 2007 02:51 AM
filter vs no filters: revisited
a few mo ago I posted that i got a few MORE hp with filters in than w/filters out.
On Fri I put my ever suffering NA motor back on Andy's Factory pro dyno and this time pulling the filters OUT resulted in SAE hp increasing from 181 to 184 (220+/- dynojet SAE hp) @10K. Go figure.
Motor set up is getting better (106/109), and lil by little we are finally making progress.
I am dyin to try something like 105/105 but current VTP prevents this experiment until i install my new "whammer-jammer" (TM Osti) custom JE deep pocket pistons after the MIR event.
These experiments are fun, but tiring...
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Stuart Racing
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posted May 13, 2007 04:26 AM
Verry interesting too....Keep it up for us N/A guys looking for everything we can get....
Paul....
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osti33
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posted May 13, 2007 05:43 AM
Hmmm...The filters vs. no filters is interesting. I wonder why one time is different from the other.
At any rate it sounds like the ole girl is making some steam!! 
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entropy
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posted May 13, 2007 07:10 AM
quote:
Hmmm...The filters vs. no filters is interesting. I wonder why one time is different from the other.
At any rate it sounds like the ole girl is making some steam!!
starting to make some steam... finally 
18-20 more than it was making when we did the Mile in Mar (bad guides).
don't know why it went the other way before.
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tcchin
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posted May 13, 2007 11:17 AM
Airbox resonance is a property that's tuned according to the parameters of the entire system. When you make large-scale changes to the motor, you may find that the stock airbox config is no longer optimal. Even seemingly small changes like header diameters, port finish and overlap timing can have an affect on how the airbox plays with the system. Some factory racing power-up manuals suggest replacing the filter with a screen to match the other engine mods, while others caution you strongly to leave the stock paper element in place.
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APE Jay
Novice Class
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posted May 13, 2007 09:25 PM
If the motor is actually run other than on the dyno and dirt can get into the intake tract, then the power gains will be short lived as the valve job goes away.
Jay
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tcchin
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posted May 13, 2007 10:08 PM
I think that's the very essence of racing...
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entropy
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posted May 13, 2007 11:50 PM
I am really fuddled when it comes to thinking about airbox dynamics, but that consideration was what induced me to put the filters in for a test a few mo ago after running without em for 2-3 years.
Tim,
Am I correct in assuming that you run yr RR bikes WITH filters cause all the dirt you have blowing around in socal???
Jay,
At the drag track in this part of texas we don't have a lot of sand in the air. If mosquitos were abrasive I'd have a real problem.
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted May 14, 2007 12:00 PM
220 Real nice! Can't wait to see what them "Whammer-Jammers" will have you at! Plus a little of Andy's new U4.1/C12 mix!
I hear them Mo City mosquitos will carry small pets and children away!
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entropy
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posted May 14, 2007 12:54 PM
Gary,
220 is an estimate based on the different numbers i got before on both types of dynos.
But one o these days, i wanna do a session on JC's dyno to see what it says.
Yep, Mo City mosquitos do carry small stuff away.
(Good reason not to pee in the back yard)
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tcchin
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posted May 14, 2007 03:11 PM
I run an air filter for two reasons:
1) The rulebook requires it.
2) I'm too cheap and too lazy to do rebuilds every week on practice, qualifying and race motors.
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nox
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PMRA / TMRC Super Street 4022
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posted May 14, 2007 04:51 PM
Look at the dyno map for the zx12 on brocks site..........(map that I run, with my timing tweaks down low......)
NO filters.........
126mph in the 1/8 mile stock motor..........
Mph is hp.
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Texas12R
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posted May 14, 2007 06:51 PM
 Edited By: Texas12R on 14 May 2007 20:00
I hear them Mo City mosquitos will stand flat footed and mate a turkey!
but on the serious side.....have you looked at coatings for internals, pistons etc.
Mo city being so close to Houston . Lots of sources for the exotic....and industrial apps
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nox
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posted May 14, 2007 07:06 PM
Karl, you gotta make one of these last a while, so I can justify going mondo cc's
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42 Wins
21 Runner-ups
2010 TMRC Super Street Points Champion
2010 PMRA Super Street #3 Points
2009 PMRA Super Street Points Runner-Up
6 Time Centerville Dragway Points Champion
Sponsored by:
Scorpion Helmets
Galfer Braking
AMSOIL
Steve's Speed Shop
Kawasaki Sports Center
Mickey Thompson Tires
Catalyst Racing Composites
Conway Cycle
Syed Leathers
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 15, 2007 03:24 AM
Nox: It seems that my reliability issues are much better than before; the offset rod journals really SEEM to help. Time will tell.
Since i spend time on the dyno and 1/4 mi i am not terribly worried about ingesting sand cause there sure isn't much sand/dust in Houston swamplands.
In Tim's situation besides being the rules, I have the impression that SoCal RR tracks have lots of blowing dust from time to time.
Gary: coatings... hmmmmm... its a thought, but i am gonna stay "lo tech" while i do head, cam, and cam CL testing this summer. My mind is overwhelmed as it is.
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Texas12R
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posted May 15, 2007 05:37 AM
Just food for thought.....................The piston is one of the very first parts that should be considered for coating. Coating the piston reduces friction and wear, reduces part operating temperature, can increase horse power and torque, reduce or eliminate detonation, allow higher compression ratios to be utilized and allow tighter piston to wall clearances for a better ring seal.
Pistons can be coated with three different systems. They are Dry Film Lubricants, Thermal Barriers and Oil Shedding Coatings. These systems can be beneficial on all pistons whether 4 stroke, 2 stroke, gas, alcohol, diesel, reciprocal or rotary.
We will look at the Thermal Barrier coatings first. Either CBC2 or CBX may be applied. CBX is recommended for all High Compression (13:1 and higher), Turbo Charged, Super Charged or engines running Nitrous Oxide. CBC2 should be run on all other engines. Both CBC2 and CBX insulate the piston against damaging heat transfer, keeping more of the heat generated by combustion, pushing down on the piston for greater power. By retaining minimal heat on the surface of the piston, less heat is transferred to the incoming fuel mixture, leading to a reduction in pre-ignition which leads to detonation. The coatings can also allow heat at the sur face to move more evenly over the surface reducing hot spots and the coatings reflect heat into the chamber for more even distribution of heat, allowing more efficient combustion of the fuel. This allows more of the fuel molecules to be oxidized, which in turn, means less fuel is needed for optimum power. The result is an engine that makes more power, can be run with a leaner air/fuel mix and less initial timing and has less thermal ex pansion due to a reduction in the heat absorbed.
By applying a Dry Film Lubricant, friction, galling and wear is reduced. The lubricants are capable of carrying loads beyond the crush point of the piston. In addition, the lubricants are "fluid retaining" materials that actually hold oil to the surface beyond the pressure where the oil would normally be squeezed off. The ability to carry greater loads, up to 350,000 PSI, while increasing lubricity (reduced friction) allows tighter piston to wall clearances to be run. This leads to better sealing with no increase in friction.
By applying Tech Line's TLTD to the underside of the piston, oil that is splashed onto the piston to cool it will shed rapidly. Heat transfers most rapidly when there is a large difference in temperature. The longer oil clings to a hot surface the hotter the oil becomes. By shedding the cooling oil more rapidly, cooler oil is splashed over the surface more frequently. If the oil "hangs" longer, it absorbes less heat and blocks cooler oil from contacting the hot surface. A cooler piston grows less, allowing tighter piston to wall clearances.
The following are recommended for pistons: DFL-1, TLML, CERMALUBE (Highly recommended), CBC2, CBX and TLTD.
Contact Stan Wilder at Engine
Ceramics by E_Mail Contact Stan Wilder at Engine and Industrial Ceramics by Phone 214-352-4931 (Dallas Texas)
Please Leave a message if we don't catch the phone within a few rings, we'll get back to you.
Engine and Industrial Ceramics
Shipping Address
3934 Clover Lane
Dallas, TX 75220 Company Owner:
Stan Wilder
I just thought that when you use the "whammer Jammer" pistons it would be like an insurance
policy with a really attentive claims agent
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TRNorBRN6001
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posted May 15, 2007 10:07 AM
I went the coatings route on my motor to keep temps down while on the street. I don't think it made to much of a difference on the HP side, but maybe a little insurance. Ceramic coated the head and pistons along with oil shedding and dry film on the pistons, rods, and crank.
Unfortunetly my flywheel delaminated and it should be back together with all the old raggedy parts so I'll just be hoping for 210HP with pump gas, a little timing, and pump gas.
The expense on coatings can add up a little bit. I went with Calico Coatings, I believe they do some NASCAR stuff.
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