Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 29, 2007 07:20 AM
Clutch stack height...
What are all you drag guys running for a stack height?
Whats the best drag combo? As in steels,frictions,springs etc?
The guys running all 2.0 steels, are you adding an extra 1.4 0r 1.6 to get the stack height back above 2.240" ?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
   
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 29, 2007 07:43 AM
Jim,
For stack height i replace one 2.0 with 2 x 1.4's
since i have a lockup my spring set up doesn't help you.
getting ready for MIR???!!!
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 29, 2007 03:15 PM
Karl, what springs are you running? Have you had any puller issues?
I just measured the stock spring tension, the muzzy spring tension and the schnitz spring tensions at different installed stack heights. The data gets confusing but i'll try and make it as simple as possable.
First the stock clutch stack height is 2.270" (2.240"-2.270") and the spring installed height is 1.475" stock spring is 53 lbs and the schnitz (zx-6?) is 79. The Muzzy spring coil binds at about 1.480" so It cant be used with a stock stack height.
The muzzy clutch 10 2.0 steels and 11 frictions has a stack height of 2.220 and spring installed height of 1.588". At this installed spring height a stock spring is 48 lbs muzzy is 63 lbs and the schnitz is 73 lbs.
The muzzy clutch stack height plus one 1.6mm steel is 2.285" the installed spring height is 1.525" stock spring at that height is 50 lbs muzzy 67 and schnitz is 77.
Karl, muzzy stack minus one 2.0mm steel and add two 1.4mm = 2.260" .040" taller than the muzzy stack and right in the spec of proper puller and rod alignment.
Just posting this quick right now but I think I got this all down correctly. I'll have to re check all my notes thou.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted January 29, 2007 06:36 PM
Jim, I use the 12 frictions and 11 1.6s, that gives you a better stack height...I use the 1881 springs on the stock motor, those will be too soft for your motor...I would go with the 6 zx6r springs...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=13&TID=17845
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
|
posted January 29, 2007 06:50 PM
Jim,
I run 6 zx6/schnitz springs in mine. No problems. The lever might be a little stiff for the street but it's fine for the track.
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 30, 2007 12:55 AM
Jim,
I haven't had any problems with coil binding, never thought of it.
CR's way to go with OEM clutch pak is fine, as is the Muzzy pak with replacing one 1.6 with 2 x 1.4'; both work great.
I have not had any problems with puller rods, stock or MTC set ups.
sounds like you are having fun measuring stuff 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 02:35 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 30 Jan 2007 03:05
Well, coil bind would only be a problem if you try and run the muzzy springs with a stock tall (2.270) stack height like Ricks combo. At that point you can run into coil bind. Using schnitz/zx6 springs would eliminate the coil bind problem.
Rick are you using a drilled and slotted muzzy hub for the extra oil?
So the bottom line... DONT use muzzy springs on a stock clutch stack height of 2.270" 11S/12F !!!!
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 03:00 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 30 Jan 2007 03:02
spring combos...
stock stack height of 2.270" 11 1.6mm steels 12 frictions
all stock 318#
3 stk 3 schnitz 396#
3 stk 3 muzzy 333# (not recomended because of coil bind)
all schnitz 474#
muzzy stack height 2.220" 10 2.0mm steels 11 frictions
all stock 288#
3 stk 3 muzzy 333#
3 stk 3 schnitz 363#
3 muzzy 3 schnitz 408#
all schnitz 438#
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 30, 2007 04:20 AM
Jim,
I'm kinda curious about the coil bind you are calculating on the Muzzy springs.
I have used those springs at different stack heights and never experienced bind??????
maybe its real close and i've dodged a bullet?
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 04:48 AM
Actually the coil bind was measured on a very accurate spring checker. There is a percentage rule before coil stack that one shouldnt exceed but that applies to valve springs. Harmonics arnt an issue in this application but clutch release ability is.
But your running a stack height of 2.230" right? So thats ok. Thats about as thick as you may want to go and use the muzzy springs. Remember the installed spring height decreases when the clutch is pulled in. I havent measured what that distance is yet but if it exceeds available spring travel then coil bind is a problem. This may be why some guys have worn the knob off the pullers. Or it could just be that the order of bearing and washer under the puller was wrong and the puller was spinning at clutch speed. Then it would be like a lathe and machine off the knob.
The muzzy springs are a thicker wire so thats where the coil bind issue comes from. The schnitz/zx6 springs are also a thicker wire but not as thick.
I would only use the Muzzy springs with the muzzy configured clutch stack. If any extra steels are added to increase stack height then I'd use the schnitz/zx6 springs.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 04:54 AM
I think the ideal combo ON PAPER is your stack height Karl, the Muzzy stack minus one 2.0mm steel and add two 1.4mm steels with 3 stock and 3 schnitz springs.
The only advantage over a regular Muzzy stack and muzzy springs is that the geometry of the clutch actuator shaft and puller are now within the stock perameters. Also the spring tension is a bit higher, but I dont know if thats even nessisary or not.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted January 30, 2007 06:07 AM
I did a bunch of spring pressure and stack height testing a couple years ago, but have forgotten more than i ever knew.
I'm glad you are doing this stuff now, and i WILL cut & paste your results into my files.
Thanks!!!
BTW, with the OEM clutch on my 1361/1375 i was getting slippage and mph loss at the big end of the 1/4. 3 muzzy prings and 3 OEM springs stopped it.
My lockup has a different issue: getting the springs just soft enough, but not too soft
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted January 30, 2007 07:38 AM
I run the standard Muzzy setup, 10 2.0 steels and 11 stock fibers... 3 Muzzy or Schnitz springs and 3 stockers...
Mad Mike
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 08:06 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 30 Jan 2007 08:51
Thanks Rick, I read thru the thread you posted in this thread.
One thing to note is that muzzy also cuts a channel inside the hub along where the holes are drilled. This helps "funnel" the oil into the holes to go thru the hub and cool and lube the frictions and steels. The hub wall is tapered and the channel is cut straight so the end result "looks like" a tapered channel. The 02 hub has the holes cast in the back side as mentioned but it also has CAST channels on the inside of the hub that align with the holes cast in the back of the hub. These holes cast in alow oil to enter the hub from the back side and they have a lip so the oil cant flow back out from centrifugal force. The oil has to flow down the inside of the hub and out the front. So drilling holes in these cast chanels would be the same as drilling and channeling the 00-01 hub like muzzys does.
Also muzzy cuts 3 oil feed slots under the washer and nut holding the hub on. This alows oil from the splines to escape into the hub to feed the channels and go thru the holes.
A note on the clutch puller. on a stock clutch stack height the puller isnt in the shaft 100%. There is a gap of about 1/8" to the flat "disc" portion of the puller. so if a flat spot is ground all the way to the flat "disc" on the puller then oil will flow at all times whether the clutch is in or out.
On the muzzy stack height the puller is deeper in the shaft by about .060" but is still not bottomed out. So oil will still flow fron the ground puller as long as the flat ground area is ground all the way to the "disk" on the puller.
A hole in the input shaft would do about the same thing but it would distribute the oil more in the center of the hub. But requires a major disassembly of the trans shaft and then a wire EDM hole cut of aprox. .020"-.030" or a pair of holes in opisition .010"-.015". A pair of holes would reduce the risk of a no oil condition if one hole becomes pluged or partially pluged.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 04:36 PM
Ryan, does the 6 schnitz springs wear out puller knobs? Mines kinda worn from 19k miles and most of it with a muzzy clutch.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted January 30, 2007 05:36 PM
Edited By: CrotchRocket on 30 Jan 2007 17:45
Jim, Im using a 2002 OEM hub...There are 6 oil passages on the inside of the hub that are the size of a pen cap!!!
Buy a new puller, no worries then 
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 06:21 PM
But how does the oil get thru the hub to the clutch pack without holes drilled.?
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted January 30, 2007 06:32 PM
I have no idea, but when I remove the plates from the Blue12 they have more oil on them then the Red12 ever had!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 30, 2007 06:39 PM
I'm wondering if they modified the basket hub in 02 as well to get more oil up there?
In which case an o2 hub alone doesnt fix the oiling problem.
I dont know I'm just thinking out loud.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted January 30, 2007 06:46 PM
They did fix the oiling problem Jim...They made the ZX14 !!!...The 14 is what the 12 should have been!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
|
posted January 30, 2007 10:29 PM
I thought the 02 hub had oiling holes drilled thru the sides as well. Pretty sure it does.. I was going to replace my Muzzy's hub with the 02 hub and see what happens..
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 31, 2007 05:17 AM
No it doesnt have any holes to feed the stack thru the hub. So they must be oiling it another way I guess? I've never had an 02 or newer apart so....
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
|
posted January 31, 2007 05:19 AM
quote:
They did fix the oiling problem Jim...They made the ZX14 !!!...The 14 is what the 12 should have been!!!
And the 12 is what the 11 should have been. and the gsxr1000 is what the gsxr1100 should have been... and on and on.
____________
Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted January 31, 2007 06:51 PM
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
CJ
Novice Class
Posts: 53
|
posted June 02, 2009 05:21 PM
Where do u drill the hub have the same problem no oil on clutches. Bike is creeping with falicon billet basket. Dont know how to check stack height need help any suggestions????
____________
07 plasma blue zx14
Ain't no fun when the rabbits got the gun
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC